♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Author Margaret Seidler next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion, both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> We're most honored to have, with "The Chavis Chronicles" today, an outstanding author, outstanding researcher, but more than that, a truth teller from Charleston, South Carolina.

Margaret Seidler, welcome.

>> Thank you, Dr. Chavis.

It's a real honor to be here with you today.

>> Every time I think about Charleston, South Carolina, I have a lot of different images that emerge.

But I want to first talk about your courage to get you to write a book about Charleston's journey to truth.

But first, tell us about your family.

As you did research, how does your family of people of Africa before the Civil War?

>> So, I was born in Charleston in 1952 and grew up and was raised in the Country Club of Charleston, directly adjacent to McLeod Plantation on James Island.

And my mother had married a man from Savannah who was a quite well-to-do businessman, which is how we were in the country club.

My mother's family was longtime Charleston, and my belief was, until just six years ago, that my family were German immigrants that had come there in the 1850s who were working class.

They were not landed gentry or anything like that.

Six years ago, a friend revealed to me that she had taken a DNA test and had some health marker issues.

And, so, I went back and looked at one that I've now taken 12 years ago that I had taken and really didn't pay much attention to.

And I went back in there and thank goodness I don't have any concerning health markers.

What I did find, though, was a message from a cousin, and the cousin's message had been sitting there for close to a year, and she wanted to know what our connection was and ancestry, and what was surprising was that my cousin was of African descent.

And, so, given that we had done a lot of work in the Charleston community after the Mother Emanuel massacre, which had been just a few years before that, I reached out to my brand-new cousin and I said, "What can I do to support you?"

She says, "We really want to know our forefathers that we can't go any farther than the 1870 census.

We don't know who we're part of."

And I said, "Well, I've never been interested in genealogy.

I've really never been interested in history.

I am willing to go back and look at some papers that my grandmother had left when she passed in 1983 and search for our connections."

And, so, that's what I did.

>> So you have an extended family that includes African-Americans?

>> Yes, I do.

It was really an honor for me to do the research for my newfound cousins, because they couldn't know without my being able to make the connection.

So, when I started the research, I just started a general search online with some of the names that my grandmother had written on those two sheets of paper.

And lo and behold, this name popped up.

And it was a man by the name of John Torrance.

And I had seen that name a long time ago, but the records weren't in New York, which the sheet of paper said.

The records were right there at the College of Charleston in Charleston, and it said that this man had moved to Charleston in 1758, and he was a very wealthy merchant, wealthy merchant, and that he had done lots of things overseas, including bringing captive Africans across the Atlantic into Charleston.

>> His wealth was connected to the transatlantic slave trade.

>> That's correct.

My fifth great grandfather, yes.

>> And those records were still there in the College of Charleston in South Carolina?

>> Yes, sir.

And I went just five minutes from where my husband, Bob, and I live, drove downtown to the College of Charleston library, and I held in my hand a letter written by him in 1775 about where he was trying to get a mortgage with his brother- in-law, Alexander Rose.

And they were talking about the enslaved people, which were referred to as Negroes, that they wanted to put up for the mortgage to make some sort of financial transaction.

So I was -- I was appalled.

I mean, growing up in the country club, we had a swimming pool.

We had obviously a golf course, we had tennis courts, we had a small boat, marina on the creek.

And next to us was McLeod Plantation.

And I remember, as a child, going over there and playing, and there would be children in the cabins and outside the cabins, which we referred to as slave quarters back in the '50s.

The big house is still there.

This was just down the dirt road.

>> So, for our viewers, McLeod Plantation was a slave plantation.

>> Yeah.

So they had around, I think it was around 100 enslaved people there.

And their primary crop was cotton.

>> So, a golf country club... >> Yes, sir.

>> ...was built adjacent to the McLeod Slave Plantation?

>> Yes, sir.

It's still there today.

>> In Charleston, South Carolina.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Wow.

To be very honest, very few White people in America have the courage that you have, Margaret.

>> Thank you.

>> So thank you.

I don't want you to be nervous.

I want you to be free to tell your truth so we all can have not only more respect for one another, but we should try to learn from history.

But we can't learn from history if we don't know what the history was.

That's so important with your book.

Tell us about the book that you've written.

>> I thought that my stepping forward with a more complete truth of Charleston's history, the history that I was not taught in school, not taught in our history books, not taught as an adult, that if we could get the truth on the table, then we could have an opportunity to build relationships across the racial divide unlike we've ever been able to do before.

And this is not about shaming people or making anybody feel bad.

It's about just facing the facts.

History can make us better.

And I was never interested in history.

And once I started doing my research into my family, I don't know that I've ever been more excited about anything in my life.

It was like to be on a path where I could go to an audience of people who look like me and have them literally hear me and absorb it and not feel threatened by it.

So, as I learned about my fifth great grandfather, I also went into research, which is what really drove the book, the title of the book, which is "Payne-ful Business," and that's P-A-Y-N-E-hyphen- F-U-L business, "Payne-ful Business: Charleston's Journey to Truth."

Is that I found out that John Torrens' daughter, Maria Margaret, married a man named William Payne, who came from Ireland in 1786 to Charleston.

And in the first three decades of the 19th century, he was the busiest domestic slave trader in Charleston.

>> Wow.

>> And I have over 1,100 newspaper ads, digitized ads that I got online, that document his sales over his career with his sons.

>> Of all the slave ports in America, more enslaved Africans came to North America through the Charleston port than any other airport in America.

>> That's right.

Around 40 or so percent of the entire captive Africans came through the port of Charleston.

>> You know, your courage -- You're not only writing a book about this, but you're not doing it from far away.

You're doing it from your own crucible of your own family... >> Right.

>> ...of where you live today.

>> Yes.

>> That's very unique.

>> I'm only 10 minutes from where we're talking about.

So when the transatlantic slave trade ended, the domestic slave trade took off.

And this is really where William Payne started making a lot of money.

And his building is on Broad Street, right in the historic district, the main business street on Broad.

And I have documented -- >> The building's still there?

>> Yes, sir.

The façade has been taken down, but the building is still there, and I've seen the inside of the building.

And just imagine that, when I found out about this, we wanted to put a historical marker there.

So I went to the people who owned the building currently, and I asked them if they would let us put a private historical marker on the front of the building, and they agreed.

And so there's this beautiful bronze marker that has a photograph of what the building looked like in the late 1800s.

And it also memorializes the number of people that my family sold in the domestic slave trade, which is 9,268 people that I've documented over a 30-year period.

>> One family.

>> My family.

>> Over 9,000 enslaved people of African descent?

>> Yes.

And during that same 30-year period, there were at least 25 other domestic slave trading firms.

And my family's largest domestic sale, their biggest auction, was of 367 people in two days.

Let me just say this.

Charleston, what I grew up believing in Charleston, was that the Old Slave Mart Museum, which is just a block away from Broad Street, was where most of the sales took place, and those were actually only there from 1857 to 1863.

People were being sold, human beings were being sold, in the buildings on Broad Street, out on the street on Broad Street, State Street, East Bay Street.

There was traffic congestion from the sale of human beings.

>> So it wasn't just one building.

There were a lot of slave markets, there were a lot of slave auction places.

Once you published this book, what has been the reaction to your family, to your neighbors, and the general public in Charleston?

>> When we put the marker up in January 2021, my husband, Bob, and I would ride by it like three times a week to make sure nobody had put red paint on it or torn it down or anything like that.

And the response has been just the opposite.

And just the opposite, the book has been so well received.

I think, with the -- with Mayor Joe Riley getting us ready for the International African American Museum that opened last year, I think people in this community of South Carolina have gotten more open to hearing the truth that maybe they haven't heard before.

So it has been embraced.

There has been almost negligible negativity, almost negligible.

I would say, at worst, there's been a little bit of silence, and it has been equally embraced in the White community as it has the Black community.

>> Tell us what's been some of the responses to people who have actually read the book.

>> There's only one ask that I have of the book is that, number one, that they acknowledge the historical realities and the consequences, many of which we still live with in today's society.

And then, the other part of it is that they take that and act now in the present to create a better future.

I mean, we have had...

I got an e-mail this week from somebody that I hadn't seen in 30-some years.

She lives up on Litchfield Plantation, up near Pawleys Island, South Carolina, up the coast.

And where she lives, there's an African-American cemetery that's been in disrepair for decades.

She went to her homeowners board this week to ask them to put aside the money or get the money to actually clean up the cemetery, and then to put an annual amount in their budget so that the people's graves that are not marked properly can at least know that they are cared for and honored today.

And I think that that's really what a lot of this is about.

And I think the magic that's in this book is -- are the paintings that are in the book.

And an example is that a good friend of ours, Chuma Nwokike, in Charleston, who owns an art gallery, connected us with an artist, John W. Jones, a little over a year ago, and he wanted to see what he could do to help.

And, so, he joined us on this journey by taking the very ads, the newspaper ads describing the people being sold either privately or on the auction block, and he lifted them up into full humanity through beautiful living color, so that he describes them and portrays them doing what they did to not only build that community, but to build our country.

I mean, you've got carpenters, you've got silversmiths, you've got boat captains, you've got sailors and riggers, you've got women that are tending poultry.

You've got generations of people together.

You've got sawyers, which are carpenters.

I mean, such an incredible group of human beings who enabled all of us to live here in this country today.

And we only had one ground rule, and that was we weren't going to have any shackles.

We weren't going to have any auction blocks, and Mr. Jones painted 60 paintings from 60 ads within eight months.

And I finally had to ask him just to please -- He had to stop.

We could only put 34 in the book, and we've got 43 in our traveling art exhibition.

And I think that the paintings with the story, it's the paintings and the story, the personal story that makes this different.

Is that it shows people the humanness of the people that were objectified.

And when we did our first art show in Charleston last year, I had people coming up to me with tears in their eyes, people that I've grown up with in Charleston, and they said, "You know, Margaret, I thought I always understood slavery.

I don't think I really understood it till I could see them."

And I think it's bringing people from being invisible to being human is what gives me hope for this book and for all the people that have already tried to join this journey, trying to bring us together as one people.

>> What's your response to some in American society today, they want to ban books, they want to change history?

In fact, one governor says young people should not be put in any situation -- in an educational situation -- where they're ashamed or where they're exposed to make them uncomfortable.

>> Right.

>> But in your book, you've taken that which was uncomfortable, that which is uncomfortable, but you're making it accessible to all people, no matter what your race, no matter what your ethnicity.

>> Right.

And, so, reading the book is generally not uncomfortable because we've made it palatable so that people can receive the information and not resist it.

And that's part of the training of my career and my colleagues that helped me look through the book and make sure that -- I had a group that helped with the history.

I had a group that worked with the psychology.

So I don't see it getting banned.

I think it's going to be a breath of fresh air, that there is a way to share history without making someone uncomfortable, without poking somebody in the eye.

And it's a way to not only share the truth with them, for them to walk away feeling moved and inspired to find out what they can do within their own circle of influence to make this world a little bit better for all of us.

And I don't think this is a -- This is not a sprint.

This is a marathon.

And I've lived long enough to understand marathons.

And this is one that's worth staying in.

>> Back during the early days of the Civil Rights Movement, we would say truth is therapeutic.

>> Yes, yes.

>> Even in the Bible, it says the truth will set you free.

>> Yes.

>> The problem is getting the truth.

>> Right.

>> And then, once you get the truth, sharing the truth with others.

You're in South Carolina.

It was one of the last states to take down the Confederate flag.

And South Carolina is a very conservative state, which makes what you are doing, Margaret, all the more noteworthy.

Where do you get your courage from?

>> I think that it's a word other than courage, and I'm sure courage is one word.

And it's another word, and I don't really know how to describe it other than it's something that is freeing.

I feel very free that I am a part of making history in our country to make us more connected, for us to build relationships that we never imagined possible.

>> So the search for truth was liberating for you?

>> Very much liberating.

Yes, absolutely.

And when we put that marker on Broad Street, it was like this burden had lifted off my shoulders.

The support that we've had since this book has published has been incredible.

We're already into the second printing.

I think people in America -- Maybe we're not the ones that get all the news coverage.

I think people in America want to feel good about themselves, and they want to feel good about being Americans, which means all of us feeling good about being Americans together, because we can create whatever future we want.

I mean, that's the beauty of a self-governing system that we call democracy.

>> What has been your thing that you have learned, a result of studying your own family and publishing this book about your family's involvement and the enslavement of African people?

>> What has happened in the last nine years is understanding how different the African-American culture is from the European-American culture, and to really appreciate it.

And that's the biggest learning.

I would say that I never understood how much family means to African-Americans.

And I think I understand why, because of separation during slavery, and that there's been so much oppression that families have really had to -- they had to stay with each other and stick up for each other.

And even if they weren't blood relatives, they will become family.

And, so, I think that's one of my biggest learnings is that our cultures are so different, and yet, if we can put them together, it's so wonderful.

I mean, my husband and I have spent a lot of time in spaces where we have been the minority race in the last nine years, and that has been an eye-opening experience for me.

And it's something that I would ask any of your viewers that are of European descent to go try, to go somewhere, maybe it's in a church, maybe it's in a club or what have you, an organization, and just see what it feels like.

I never knew what it felt like to be a minority until my husband got a job transfer one time, and we went to Minneapolis, and I was the only person with a Southern accent.

And I really felt the minority.

And I just think that that's what we need.

We need to feel other -- We need to feel what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes and have a real empathy for that.

Instead of just assuming that, because everything is going really well for me, that it's going really well for everybody else.

>> Do you see race matters in the United States getting better?

Or do you see them getting worse?

>> I think I see them getting better.

I think I see them getting better.

If this book and the reception -- And we've spoken to almost a thousand people already.

I mean, if this is the kind of reception that we're going to get in a Conservative state such as my loving home state of South Carolina, then I can imagine there's a lot of hope.

>> Margaret Seidler, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> People like you who meet me at a meeting, and I give you a 30-second story about what I'm doing, says, "This is important," and you recognize it as important.

That's what gives me my greatest hope.

That you trusted me.

That you gave me an opportunity.

That you gave me access to something I otherwise would have never had.

So that's what gives me just amazing hope that the story opens doors.

>> Well, you've opened doors, and hopefully, when the viewers watch this, you'll open a million more doors.

>> And hearts.

>> And hearts.

Thank you so much, Margaret Seidler, author, but more than that, a transformer in Charleston, South Carolina.

Thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion, both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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