>>> RETURNING NOW BACK TO THE U.S. WHERE THE POLITICAL BLUEPRINT FOR THE NEXT REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT PROJECT 2025 HAS DRAWN CRITICISM NOT ONLY FROM THE DEMOCRATS, BUT ALSO FROM DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF CALLING THE 900-PAGE DOCUMENT SERIOUSLY EXTREME.

YET THE CONTRIBUTORS OF THE CONSERVE OF IT PLAYBOOK IN.

HISTORIAN KRISTEN KOBES DU MEZ TALKS ABOUT THE IMPACT IT COULD HAVE ON AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> KRISTEN KOBES DU MEZ, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US WITNESS AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANT TO FOCUS OUR CONVERSATION ON PROJECT 2025, BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT I DO WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION.

ONE OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU IS THAT WE LAST SPOKE WITH YOU ABOUT YOUR 2020 BOOK "JESUS AND JOHN WAYNE."

YOU ARGUED THAT MODERN EVANGELICALISM HAS REPLACED THE JESUS OF THE GOSPELS WITH A MODEL OF RUGGED MASCULINITY AND CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM.

DID YOU SEE THAT PLAYING OUT OVER THE COURSE OF THE CONVENTION WEEK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT REALLY IS THE VISION.

IT'S NOT A DEEP, THEOLOGICAL VISION.

IT'S A VISION FOR A CHRISTIAN AMERICA, AND I PUT THAT IN QUOTES.

CHRISTIAN AMERICA AND A VISION OF THE COUNTRY WHO SAYS THIS VISION OF THE COUNTRY BELONGS TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT NOT TO ALL PEOPLE.

IT'S A VISION OF AMERICA THAT DRAWS A STARK BOUNDARY BETWEEN REAL AMERICANS, THOSE WHO ARE ON GOD'S SIDE WHO ARE TRYING TO RESTORE CHRISTIAN AMERICA AND ENEMIES AND THREATS TO AMERICA, TO THIS VISION FOR CHRISTIAN AMERICA AND THAT IS A -- AN IDEOLOGY THAT RUNS THROUGH CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICALISM.

YOU CAN SEE IT ALSO IN CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICISM IN THE PENTECOSTAL CHARISMATIC TRADITION.

THAT'S REALLY BEEN CULTIVATED FOR HALF A CENTURY NOW IF YOU LOOK BACK TO THE RISE OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT, YOU CAN SEE THIS A VERY US VERSUS THEM MENTALITY THAT DEPICTS KIND OF THE CHRISTIANS OUGHT TO HAVE CONTROL OF THIS COUNTRY AND ANYBODY WHO THREATENS THAT CONTROL IS SEEN AS AN ENEMY, AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THEOLOGY THAT PLAYS VERY WELL TO DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE HE HAS PROMISED TO PROTECT CHRISTIANITY, HIS WORDS.

HE HAS PROMISED TO BE THEIR ULTIMATE FIGHTING CHAMPION AND TO BATTLE RUTHLESSLY FOR, PRESUMABLY, THEIR VISION WHICH ALIGNS WITH HIS VISION, WHICH IS AN OPEN QUESTION, BUT THAT'S WHO HE HAS PROMISED TO BE FOR THEM AND THAT IS REALLY THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING CHRISTIAN SUPPORT IN THIS COUNTRY FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THEY THINK HE WILL FIGHT FOR THEM AND HE WILL GIVE POWER TO THEM.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT PROJECT 2025.

I MEAN, IF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE CAMPAIGN CLOSELY THEY MAY HAVE HEARD OF IT, WHAT IS IT AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE TALK ABOUT IT?

>> PROJECT 2025 IS A LENGTHY DOCUMENT, AROUND 900 PAGES PUT TOGETHER BY THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, AND SIGNED ON TO BY OVER A HUNDRED CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATIONS WHICH ESSENTIALLY PROVIDES TRUMP OR THE NEXT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION A BLUEPRINT FOR POLICY PROPOSALS AND A CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL PLAYBOOK ALTHOUGH EXTREME AS WE'VE SEEN IN RECENT YEARS AND IT ALSO BRINGS TOGETHER A PROPOSAL TO ESSENTIALLY RESTRUCTURE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THAT'S WHAT'S KEY TO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT PROJECT 2025.

IT'S NOT JUST A POLICY PLAYBOOK.

IT'S ALSO A TOOL TO COMPLETELY RESTRUCTURE THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE MORE POWER TO THE EXECUTIVE.

SO WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THE RECENT SUPREME COURT RULING THAT GRANTS PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY AND HERE WE'RE SEEING A PLAYBOOK THAT IS ESSENTIALLY GOING TO HAND CONSIDERABLE POWER ACROSS THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, ACROSS FEDERAL AGENCIES AND PLACE THAT POWER ENTIRELY IN THE HANDS OF THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

>> WHY -- WHY IS THIS A PARTICULAR CONCERN OF YOURS AS A SCHOLAR OF RELIGION AND THEOLOGY.

THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION ISN'T A RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION.

WHY HAVE YOU SPENT SO MUCH FOCUS AND ATTENTION ON THIS?

>> MANY OF THE CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE EITHER CONTRIBUTED TO OR SIGNED ON TO PROJECT 2025 ARE DISTINCTLY CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATIONS, AND YOU'VE GOT CHRISTIAN COLLEGES LIKE LIBERTY UNIVERSITY AND PATRICK HENRY COLLEGE AND YOU DO HAVE DOBBSON'S FAMILIEN STUT SIGNING ON TO THIS DOCUMENT.

SO WE HAVE TO THINK IN TERMS OF PARTNERSHIPS HERE.

A KEY PERSON HERE, A KEY FIGURE IS RUSSELL VOGT.

RUSSELL VOGT ACTUALLY IS A FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL IN THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, AND HE ALSO WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE COMMITTEE THAT WROTE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PLATFORM, RIGHT?

SO THERE IS VERY DEEP TIES IN A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND CLOSE CONNECTIONS TO TRUMP.

HE IS ALSO A SELF-PROCLAIMED CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST WITH VERY CLOSE TIES TO LEADING CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST VOICES IN VARIOUS DENOMINATIONS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, AND BOTH WROTE THE CHAPTER ON EXECUTIVE POWER.

SO HERE YOU CAN SEE THE CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST AGENDA IS THEN GOING TO BE PLACED IN THE HANDS OF AN EXECUTIVE WITH UNPRECEDENTED POWER, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT SUR RAY DATA ON CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM YOU DO NOT IDENTIFY ME AND THEY DO NOT WANT EYE CHRISTIAN NATION ACCORDING TO THIS, BUT THIS KIND OF EXECUTIVE POWER GRAB MAY, IN FACT, ACCOMPLISH WHAT THEY ARE SETTING OUT TO DO.

>> IT ENVISIONS A TOP TO BOTTOM OVERHAUL OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT IT PROPOSES.

FIRST, A GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE AND REALLY IMPORTANT HERE IS IT PROPOSES ESSENTIALLY REDEFINING THOUSANDS, PROBABLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FEDERAL WORKERS AS POLITICAL APPOINT SEES AND SO THE GOAL HERE IS TO INSTALL -- SOME PEOPLE SUGGEST 20,000 AND SOME AS MANY AS 50,000 FEDERAL WORKERS, CIVIL SERVANTS AND FEAR THOSE WHO ARE STACKING FEDERAL AGENCIES AND REPLACING THEM WITH TRUMP LOYALISTS.

IN FACT, PART OF PROJECT 2025 IS WHAT PEOPLE HAVE REFERRED TO AS A KIND OF CONSERVATIVE LINKEDIN, SO THERE IS A RECRUITMENT DATABASE AND ONLINE TRAINING TO TRAIN IDEOLOGICALLY AND IN TERMS OF PRACTICAL SKILLS TO STAFF A NEW GOVERNMENT WITH LOYALISTS TO TRUMP ACROSS ALL AGENCIES, AND THIS INCLUDES THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THIS IS A REALLY KEY POINT TO UNDERSTAND IN TERMS OF THE REPERCUSSIONS HARE.

TRUMP HIMSELF HAS MADE VERY PLAIN THAT HE WANTS TO WEAPONIZE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND SEIZE CONTROL OVER OPERATIONS AND THEN USE THAT TO SEEK RETRIBUTION AGAINST HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES.

PROJECT 2025 GIVES HIM THE GAME PLAN TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL, AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE IN TERMS OF GOVERNMENT RESTRUCTURING AND THEN'S THAT FRONT.

WE ARE RESTRICTING MIFEPRISTONE AND THE COMSTOCK ACT WHICH WILL PROHIBIT THE MAILING OF ABORTION PILLS, POSSIBLY ALSO HOW FAR THEY TAKE TO CONTRACEPTIVES AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS AND ANTI-LGBTQ LEGISLATION AND ANTI-DEI PROPOSALS TO PROHIBIT THEIR USE OF LANGUAGE OF WORDS AND FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS, THINGS LIKE ABORTION, REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH, GENDER IDENTITY AND GENDER EQUITY AND THESE SORTS OF TERMS ARE GOING TO BE CANCELLED AND NOT ALLOWED IN ANY FEDERAL LAWS OR REGULATIONS.

SO IT REALLY IS EXPANSIVE IN SCOPE.

>> IN SOME OF THESE PROPOSALS THERE IS AN EXPLICIT CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST TONE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES THERE IS A, QUOTE, BIBLICALLY, CHILDREN REQUIRE BOTH THE LOVE AND NURTURING OF A MOTHER AND THE PLAY AND PROTECTION OF A FATHER.

OKAY.

THAT IS A POINT OF VIEW, BUT WE HAVE A VERY LONG ESTABLISHED PRINCIPLE HERE OF -- OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A STATE RELIGION.

HOW WOULD THIS PASS MUSTER IN THE COURTS?

THE COURTS HAVE STILL UPHELD THESE LONG-HELD PRINCIPLES THAT SUGGEST THAT YOU CANNOT ADVANTAGE ONE RELIGIOUS VIEW OVER OTHERS.

HOW DO THEY GET AROUND THAT?

>> I'M REALLY GLAD YOU POINTED TO THAT PARTICULAR PASSAGE WHICH COULD HAVE SOME REAL IMPLICATIONS, OBVIOUSLY, FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, FOR ADOPTION AND EVEN POTENTIALLY FOR DIVORCE AND SO THAT'S REALLY KEY AND IT'S ROOTING THAT PROPOSAL IN WHAT THEY CLAIM TO BE BIBLICAL MARRIAGE, A BIBLICAL PRESCRIPTION FOR WHAT MARRIAGE IS AND IS NOT.

>> THERE'S AGO PASSAGE THAT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE FRAMEWORK HERE.

IDEA THAT THE CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES THE FRED OM OR LIBERTY TO DO WHAT ONE OUGHT TO DO, BUT DO WHAT ONE WILL DO.

YES YOU ARE FREE TO STRUCTURE FWOD'S LAWS AND THEY REDEFINE -- TO THE PURSUIT OF OF HAPPINESS.

THEY SAY IT'S ACTUALLY THE PURSUIT OF BLESSINGS AND YOU ARE BLESSED WHEN YOU OBEY THESE LAWS.

WHAT ARE THOSE LAWS?

THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN LOOK AT THE WHOLE CONSERVATIVE AGENDA HERE.

IT WILL BE ANTI-ABORTION.

IT WILL BE ANTI-LGBTQ, AND SO THESE RIGHTS DO NOT EXIST WITHIN THEIR FRAMEWORK, AND SO THEY ARE REDEFINING OUR NATION'S CONSTITUTION, REINTERPRETING IT THROUGH THIS LENS THAT THE ONLY RIGHTS THAT ARE GUARANTEED ARE THOSE THAT ALIGN WITH THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S LAW.

>> I THINK YOU STILL IDENTIFY AS A CHRISTIAN, WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?

>> YES, I DO.

>> I'M JUST CURIOUS, WHY IS THIS THE VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY THAT IS ASCENDANT NOW WHEN SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF IT.

>> SO THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID, ARE SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE.

THIS DOES NOT ALIGN WITH HOW I UNDERSTAND JESUS' WORDS IN THE GOSPEL.

THIS DOES NOT ALIGN WITH HOW I THINK WE ARE CALLED TO BE FAITHFUL IN THIS WORLD, BUT WHEN YOU OFFER VOICES OF OPPOSITION, YOUR CHANCES ARE YOU'RE GOING TO RUN UP AGAINST SOME REAL OPPOSITION, AND MANY CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATIONS ARE FUNDED BY POWERFUL CONSERVATIVE DONORS AND THIS IS TRUE IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND THIS IS ALSO TRUE IN THE -- IN THE CHRISTIAN NON-PROFIT WORLD.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF PRESSURES AND THE CHRISTIAN MEDIA WORLD.

CHRISTIAN MUSIC.

IT IS VERY HARD TO FIND A CHRISTIAN RECORDING ARTIST WHO WILL PUBLICLY CALL OUT THESE THINGS BECAUSE IF THEY DO THEIR CAREER IS DONE.

AT LEAST THEY WILL NOT GET TIME ON CHRISTIAN RADIO IN TERMS OF CHRISTIAN PUBLISHING AND A MULTIBILLION-DOLLAR INDUSTRY WE'RE TALKING AND PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF CHRISTIAN SPACES OR CONSERVATIVE SPACERS NOT AWARE OF THIS MASSIVE INDUSTRY, AND SO MUCH MONEY IS CHANGING HANDS HERE, AND WITHIN THAT INDUSTRY THERE ARE POLITICAL ORTHODOXYS THAT YOU HAVE TO HOLD TO, AND IF YOU CROSS ANY OF THOSE, RIGHT?

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE BOOK CONTRACT.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE RECORD DEAL, AND SO WHAT WE HAVE IS A KIND OF INDOCTRINATION MAY NOT BE TOO STRONG OF A WORD, BUT CERTAINLY THE CULTIVATION OF ONE PARTICULAR WAY TO BE A CHRISTIAN AND CLOSING OFF MANY THESE OTHER UNDERSTANDINGS OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A CHRISTIAN IN THIS COUNTRY AND IN THE WORLD TODAY.

>> THERE'S JUST ONE THING THAT I AM SORT OF JUST -- I STILL REMAIN PUZZLED BY AND THAT IS FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

THERE IS NO DENYING THAT HE WAS A MAN OF DEEP AND SINCERE FAITH, OKAY?

I AM JUST CURIOUS, WHY THE TREATMENT OF HIM?

IS IT MORE RESONANT AMONG OTHER EVANGELICALS?

I MEAN, HE'S MADE IT CLEAR HE WAS VERY BADLY TREATED.

THERE ARE PEOPLE CALLING FOR HIM TO BE KILLED.

>> MIKE PENCE IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE, I THINK OF HOW A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS AND A LARGE SWATH OF CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICALS HAVE EMBRACED A CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST AGENDA AND WITHIN THAT CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM, PERSONAL PIETY IS NOT WHAT MAKES SOMEBODY A GREAT LEADER, NOT AT ALL.

IN FACT, THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK AGAINST THE PERSON IN TERMS OF THEIR LEADERSHIP CAPACITY, WHAT THEY WANT IS A FIGHTER.

THEY WANT SOMEBODY WHO WILL FIGHT THEIR BATTLES FOR THEM.

THEY WANT SOMEBODY WHO WILL TAKE ON THE LEFT, THE FEMINISTS AND THE WOKE IDEOLOGY AND WHO WILL FIGHT FOR THEM, WHO WILL PROTECT THEM AND ADVANCE THEIR AIMS AND THAT IS WHO TRUMP IS AND THAT'S WHO TRUMP PROMISED TO BE QUITE EXPLICITLY.

BACK IN 2016 IT WAS KIND OF UNPROVEN TERRITORY AT THAT TIME.

IT WASN'T QUITE CLEAR IF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS WOULD EMBRACE A MAN LIKE TRUMP WHO SO CLEARLY DID NOT LIVE UP TO ANY OF THEIR MORAL STANDARDS THAT THEY CLAIM TO HOLD SO DEAR.

THIS IS THE MORAL MAJORITY, AFTER ALL.

THESE ARE FAMILY VALUES VOTERS, RIGHT?

AND SO MIKE PENCE WAS MAYBE A BIT OF AN INSURANCE POLICY OR IT WASN'T QUITE CLEAR THAT HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY -- THAT TRUMP DIDN'T NEED MIKE PENCE BECAUSE THEY WERE AFTER THE FIGHTER, AND PENCE DID NOT STAND UP AND FIGHT WHEN IT MATTERED OR TRUMP WHEN IT MATTERED TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, AND SO PENCE VERY MUCH FELL OUT OF FAVOR.

A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN I KNOW SAY HE'S A GOOD GUY.

THOSE WHO AREN'T ROLLING THEIR EYES AT HIM FOR BEING TOO WEAK MIGHT SAY HE'S A GOOD GUY, BUT HE'S JUST NOT WHAT THIS COUNTRY NEEDS RIGHT NOW.

WE NEED A STRONG MAN.

WE NEED SOMEBODY WHO WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PRESERVE THIS NATION AND TO RESTORE THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF CHRISTIAN AMERICA.

>> IS THIS A MOMENT IN TIME OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT HAS JUST BECOME SUCH A FEATURE OF AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY THAT IT IS GOING TO BE A FORCE FOR SOME TIME TO COME?

>> IT'S BOTH.

IT'S A CULMINATION IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO ME THAT THESE -- THIS AGENDA IS NOT NEW.

THESE ASPIRATIONS, WE CAN TRACE BACK TO THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION WAS FOUNDED IN THE 1970s, AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT HAS BEEN ADVANCING THIS KIND OF MISSION FOR GENERATIONS NOW, BUT THIS IS VERY MUCH A MOMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW POISED TO ESSENTIALLY TAKE CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY AND THE VERY MECHANISMS OF OUR DEMOCRACY AND THAT IS WHAT IS NEW HERE.

THAT IS WHAT IS DIFFERENT, AND SO WE, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST SOMETIMES YOU HAD RONALD REAGAN WINNING THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS CELEBRATING AND THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION OFFERS HIM A MANDATE FOR LEADERSHIP, AND WE'VE HAD THAT IN THE PAST, BUT WHAT WE HAVEN'T HAD IS THIS PLAN AND A LIKELIHOOD OF THEM ACHIEVING THIS GOAL IF THEY -- IF THEY WIN THE WHITE HOUSE OF COMPLETELY RESTRUCTURING OUR DEMOCRAT SEE, COMPLETELY RESTRUCTURING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT AND IT IS NOT CLEAR IF WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION OR IF WE CAN REVERSE THINGS AND IF WE ARE PIT AN ENTIRE TRAJECTORY IN THIS COUNTRY, AND EVERYONE LOOK AT THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

>> KRISTEN KOBES DU MEZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.