And we're turning now to a different story with our next guest, actor Andre Holland, and the writer Tarell Alvin McCraney.

The star and scribe of the Oscar winning moonlight.

The new film High Flying Bird tells the story of a sports agent in the midst of an NBA lockout, and it follows his fight to put power back into the hands of mainly black athletes grappling with topics like social justice and race.

The film was directed by the Oscar winner, Steven Soderbergh, who shot it all on an iPhone.

Holland and McCraney sat down with Michel Martin to talk about High Flying Bird and why it's necessary for African-Americans to create their own stories Screenwriter Tarell Alvin McCraney and executive producer and star Andre Holland are both with us now.

Thank you both so much for talking to us.

Thank you for having us.

One of the writers reviewing the film called it the most radical sports film he's ever seen, and not just because it's a basketball movie with hardly any basketball in it.

Tell me a little bit more about what you were going for, because I understand that you worked on this over a period of years.

Really, right?

Yeah, I think about two, two to three years.

So what do you what were you going for?

I think it's what we were going for, really.

I mean, the naissance the beginning of the piece came from conversations that Andre had been having with with Steven And they brought me into that conversation.

They brought, you know, features and clips and articles and books, a very important book, The Revolt of the Black Athlete.

And they put it in front of me and said, look, you know, what do you what are you thinking about this?

How do we make this story into something that is about an industry that circles around one of the most powerful and exciting games ever?

Talk a little bit more about those conversations you were having with Steven Soderbergh.

What was the germ of the idea for you?

It was sort of twofold.

One, you know, we were working on the show the next evening.

I were and I was really enjoying that process.

And it had been a long time, you know, come in.

I mean, before I felt like I got a part that I could really sink my teeth into.

So I thought, well, you know what?

If I'm going to have the kind of career that I want, it's probably going to involve me making things for myself.

Steven agreed with that.

And so I had this idea, which is very generous to actually tell the truth to your face, right?

Yeah.

I mean, for somebody to who knows the industry as well as he does, to say, yeah, you know, he didn't sell me a dream and say, no, just keep working hard and keep on auditioning and keep on pushing.

He said, Nah, man, actually, you know, there's not really a lane for you.

So you have to go out and make the stuff.

I do want to get to the film but I do want to hear a little bit more about what it felt to hear.

I got to make my own work.

I've got to create my own world because it's not going to just be there for me.

Well, the truth is, it was sad.

It felt sad to me to hear that.

I think for so long I thought that, you know, going to a good university, going to a good graduate program, and then working hard and being on time, being responsible, doing good work, was enough.

And then I realized that it wasn't, you know, and I could see that other people around me, you know, were getting great opportunities.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not begrudging anybody.

And I'm not this is not a, you know, for me session.

But the reality of it was that there were opportunities that people got that weren't necessarily available to to people of color.

Right.

I think, you know, you've had similar experiences in terms of realizing the limitations, the slap in the face or the bump on the glass ceiling, which I'm sure you understand and know about.

There's a moment where you recognize that the American dream is a bit of a wolf ticket they tell you in in the good schools that we've gone, too, in the good institutions that we go through, that there is no limit to your imagination.

And when in fact, there is, there's an industry that is constantly keeping you checked and balanced in terms of how far you can go and how far you can fail, how many jobs you have to take, how many projects you need to do at once just to keep up with your your white counterparts or your white peers.

We begrudge our friends nothing.

We're not trying to take anything away from them, but we are being asked to do more for less.

And clearly, you can see how that made its way into the film.

Into the ethos of the film.

Perfect segue way to the film.

Thank you for that.

Let's play a clip that describes kind of the plan without giving it all away for people who haven't seen it yet.

You thought to yourself, you know what?

What if the players were in control?

The money would go direct to you, too.

No players association, no league Just 10% for you in taxes, right?

You mean about the money, man?

We talk about money because that's what makes them listen and pay attention.

But this makes you the decider, brother.

The game that they made over the game is over.

Is your game now.

If you want it come on side.

We don't need the league, man.

We don't need the players association.

Let them battle it out over network rights and split for the next few months.

While you, me and a few others.

We rec shop paid a visit by event like boxing, but without the brain damage.

Well, okay.

Well, it's about control.

Who do you think your audience is for this film?

I mean, I always start with an audience of one trying to make sure that the person who began studying and researching and having conversations with Andre and Steven Soderbergh about this will I be fed?

Well, I will.

I know more than I did before.

Increasingly, you want folk who engage in engage in any system systems in this country in the way it works to want to look at this and see, yes.

The critique, but also how we all play a part in how we all hold up hold up the system in some ways and are afraid to be disrupters.

I mean, I know I have that fear.

I still have that for you.

And I think the engagement around that conversation is what I'm interested in.

I'm interested in folks who want to talk about that.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Andrew, what about you?

Who are you interested in talking to?

You know, is is interesting.

I've been thinking about it a lot.

And tonight we have our first public screening of the film.

And my nephew is 12 years old, is coming to see it.

And he's a you know.

Is he a baller?

No, not well.

He could play.

He could play.

He's at the beginning of it.

But he's he can play.

He can who plays young black boy from Alabama.

And so it's important to me that he sees it and sees in it somebody that looks like him who's taking charge of their own lives.

I was going to ask you, though, what is it that you want him to see?

Do you want him to see disruption?

Do you want him to see that you can think thoughts that have not already been handed to you?

Exactly.

You could read from a script that you wrote Yeah.

That and also that.

You can say you can, you know, look at a look at the circumstances of your life and say, well, I can still have some agency within this and I can take charge in the situation and shape my life to be what I want it to be, regardless of what people have told me as possible for myself.

You know, it's funny because I was describing this film to people who had not yet seen it and and one person said to me, Oh, is this like Black Panther without the magic?

Oh, oh, isn't that deep?

Because in a way, what they're saying is it had to be made up because the idea that the players could take a controlling position seemed like science fiction.

And that's the terrifying thing about it, is like we believe that this disruption or this new system or there's this way of putting control in the players hands is is far and distant in science fiction.

But in truth, it's like it's actually right there.

All people really need to do is reach out and do it.

And I think, again, it goes back to that question of, you know, how much agency do you actually want?

Well, you know, but as we've seen with the protests by NFL players, which have largely dissipated, you know, by the way, they're nonviolent protests over police violence and other issues have not been well-received by some people.

Now, even setting aside the fact that, you know, the president has been harping on this because one assumes that he finds it to be a good issue for him.

You have to assume that it wouldn't be a good issue for him if what he's saying didn't resonate with certain people.

So the bottom line is, for some people, they don't want to hear it.

They feel like, you know what, sports is my role release my relaxation.

I don't want to bring your politics into it.

Or they say, look, these people are making big money.

What do I care what they think?

Let's pull up your shorts and play too.

And so what do you what do you both say to that, to the people who say, well, you know, shut up and dribble?

I would say that, you know, there's been a long lineage of people who have been athletes, who have also been activists who have been vocal about this.

Right.

Dr. Harry Edwards, who, you know, consulted with us on this, obviously, and whose book we, you know, wrote to the black athlete whose book we borrow from asking him to be a sociologist, make an appearance in a.

And I'm like, no.

Well, he's such a great guy.

And, you know, he really believed in what we were trying to do and helped us to sort of stay on the right track.

But he helped me to the to the history of this.

You know, it's been going on for a long time.

So I would say that, you know, citizens have a right, a responsibility, right to speak up and to be vocal and to be political.

I think and I don't think athletes are any exception to that rule.

And the moment you start you start telling citizens not to have their politic involved, you have to look at the economics of it, which is 60 to 70% of athletes out after their tenure in the NFL.

Five years later, they're in financial duress.

Same with the NBA.

If they're not a marquee player and they haven't sort of banked a kind of of wealth that they can sort of rest on for the rest of their lives, then they and their family now fall into a financial burden.

But also, if it is a matter of just shut up and dribble.

And while we wear Jordans, the legacy of these people on the court is what is going into a kind of feeling that is that is intimate.

It is both policy.

It is of a city.

It means something when a player leaves is traded.

People really feel betrayed by that.

That's not just shut up and dribble.

That means that's a that that is connected to a community that is connected to folk.

So you can't ask a person to represent those things, to be economically engaged in those ways, and then to have no, no ability to speak out for what should be their betterment.

One of the things that struck me about the film is that it's not just about control, it's also about vulnerability.

It shares with the other work you all have done together, Moonlight, which is a much lauded film drawing from your play in which you also had a role.

And I wondered if there's any way in which your upbringing informed this film as well, because the hard road you had, you know, you lost your mother at a young age, and did it inform this in some way?

Of course.

But I think, again, our friendship I mean, one of the things that you touched on, I think is really relevant is, you know, the bond that Dre and I have.

I mean, Dre is an incredible actor.

And but also people don't know this was an incredible athlete.

And when you're an athlete and you're one of the gifted kids in your community, you're often told that like, oh, you have the talent in the keys to go elsewhere and make money and go away from here.

And then again, like we've just been talking about, we get to this place and we recognize that there's a little lie that's been told and that the community that we want to be here with us, is it afforded this ability to be here and that the ability to give back to them is also constrained in many ways.

There are three consequential women's roles in this film.

Be the players union rep.

The the the mom who's also the manager of the kind of one of the players, maybe a chief rival of the star and also the kind of rising star who works with your character, the agent who's also, I guess, the girlfriend of one of the players sort of to.

I wanted to ask about that.

Was it important for you to highlight the role of women because again, women don't generally play a big role in sports movies?

Yeah.

I mean, it was very important to me that we you know, that we include three dimensional women in it because the more reading that we did more, we discovered that there are a lot of women who are involved in professional athletics.

And so we definitely wanted to make sure that we're doing the best we can to tell to tell their stories as well.

Thank you for trespassing.

I'm sorry, but, you know, desperate times, right?

Hardly.

Lady, you have a bright future.

Sure.

I didn't overstep with that licensing suggestion.

This is exactly where we were.

This lockout had come word that we could use I don't like to tweets you know, before we started shooting, Zazie and I got together and says he plays the she's supposed to be your assistant, but she's actually kind of a coach agent.

Let's just get real about that.

Exactly.

So she and I got together for lunch to talk about the script, and then Sonia and I got together and, you know, we sort of sat down and said, well, you know, what do you see here?

Like, what do you see in this woman, you know, that we have on the page?

And what can we add, add or take away that will make her feel, you know, fully, fully realized for you.

You know, and so I think that spirit of openness is something that that we have, you know, with each other.

And I think that we had throughout this process.

So it's nice to see that representation.

I do want to talk a little bit about the fact that the environment in filmmaking in Hollywood and the entertainment industry is so roiled right now around so many of these issues around race and opportunity, around the way women are treated.

The MeToo movement, the LGBTQ community is speaking up, particularly, you know, in the wake of the whole Kevin Hart thing with the Oscars and saying, you know what, we we have something to say about how we're depicted and represented.

And as artists, I'm wondering, does this moment feel fertile or fraught?

I will say this, it feels like a time for community.

I mean, a lot of people are like, well, why a basketball film?

It was a basketball film because one of my best friends felt really felt it really important and then made me see how really important it was.

And community to me is the way it is, how I've always wanted to create and make art.

I'm really interested in working with my people and creating the stories that we need for our own nourishment right now.

And what about you?

Feels fertile to me.

I feel like there's another there's a window that's open now, you know, and more and more people are getting through it.

But I don't feel like I've ever been in a place where I felt completely, you know, just free to sort of do whatever I wanted to do or, you know, I mean, I've always been aware of the pitfalls.

And I think maybe that's a part of I think that's a version of vulnerability that that that we understand.

Yeah.

Well, Andre Holland, Terrell Alvin McCraney, thank you both so much for talking with us.

Thank you.