♪ Gavin Jackson> Welcome to "This Week in South Carolina".

I'm Gavin Jackson.

We recently visited longtime sixth District Congressman, Jim Clyburn to discuss his new book, "The First Eight: the Story of the Pioneering" Black Congressman that came before him.

I opened by asking him what inspired him to write this book about his predecessors.

>> I think that if you look at, what's been the past, the kind of history that was being taught in the schools when I came along, it was not just wrong, but it was bad.

And that's the difference.

And when people started expressing the fact that they thought I was the first African-American to represent South Carolina in Congress, I thought that maybe I ought to introduce people to those who had served before me.

And there are eight of them.

And so, I just told my staff one day, my next book is going to be about these eight people.

But when I got in the middle of the book, things began to happen.

January 6th happened, which culminated activities that took place after the 2020 election.

And I saw this as exactly what happened after the 1876 president's election.

And I decided, that this book had to be not just a book to inform, but I had to instruct.

And I called it a cautionary tale.

Gavin> Yeah, I remember having talked with you multiple times, since January 6th.

And just how many times you do talk about that election.

So I guess in the back of my mind, I didn't realize you were writing a book at the same time, but now we know.

But obviously they are very consequential events in the nation's history.

And kind of before I, you know, get more into this later, I want to say that Reconstruction really doesn't seem like it's ever really fully taught in schools.

I feel like we get kind of from the Civil Rights era to we go from the Civil War to the Civil Rights era and a little bit of Jim Crow, but there's not really much talk about that formative period, which your book does talk about.

Rep.

Clyburn> No.

It does not and I think it should be.

I don't know why people run away from history.

You can't change it.

It's there.

It ought to be instructed to all.

If you look at what happened it says, this should not have happened, then use that history in order to instruct as to what should not happen again.

And if you don't know it, you might stumble into the same mistakes, and, you would not have learned any lessons.

Gavin> You feel like we're doing that, though?

Rep.

Clyburn> That's exactly what I feel.

And that's why I started over.

I was in the middle of this book when I decided that this book is going in the wrong direction, because I was just writing this book to inform people about eight people that I knew and they didn't know, and maybe I would have some fun with that.

But then all of a sudden I said, no, this can't be just about fun.

This has to be about educating the public.

Gavin> Yeah, because it's not just each chapter's about one of these eight folks.

It's all intermingled, which is a really fascinating way, but it's done by the years because a lot of them were serving together at the same time, too.

Rep.

Clyburn> Yes.

And they didn't necessarily get along.

And so I thought it was important, for people, to understand that these eight people worked together and some of them didn't like each other.

And that's important to me, because I think that people seem to feel that in order to be unified, you have to be unanimous.

And I don't think that's the case.

In fact, having been married to the same woman for 58 years, I can tell you that is not the case at all.

Gavin> A different book.

(laughter) But, Congressman, let's go back to these eight.

They were all born before the Civil War.

Two were from outside the state.

Three grew up to free parents.

Three were enslaved.

You grew up before the Civil Rights era, but were very much part of it.

But the Civil War impacted all their political careers differently.

But it truly launched Robert Smalls, into a celebrity status.

And still many people are discovering that today.

Not as many that they should, but you call him the most consequential of the eight.

Tell us about Robert Smalls.

Rep.

Clyburn> I call him the most consequential South Carolinian who ever lived, and anybody who wanted to be honest about the history of this state and about the various contributors to that history.

I think would come to that same conclusion.

This guy was born enslaved, went to work, outside of his house.

By, on behalf of a slave master.

But he, as one writer, wrote of him, always yearned to breathe free.

And he set about gaining his freedom, in a way that nobody else did.

He was the one that escaped.

And he did so in such dramatic fashion.

But not only was he escaped... and most people, know about Robert Smalls and the Planter.

They don't know the full history of Robert Smalls, when he gained, command of the Planter.

He became the captain of that ship.

And he did so in a very dramatic fashion, as well.

Six months after this, the man was, had emancipated himself.

He was sitting down with the president of the United States in our nation's capital.

He was the one, not Frederick Douglass.

It was Robert Smalls, that got Abraham Lincoln to allow, Blacks to serve with the Union Army.

in the Civil War.

Gavin> And that made the difference?

Rep.

Clyburn> That made all the difference.

And Abraham Lincoln said that himself at the end of the war.

He said, but for the freedmen, we know without, we may not have won this war.

And so that is the most consequential thing to have happened to this union when in the Civil War.

And so, Robert Smalls' role in that was just, fantastic.

Never formally educated, but he is the one who introduced a resolution that established free public schools for Blacks in South Carolina.

That was the first time in the history of the country that free public education was offered to people outside of the elite.

Robert Smalls, did that.

Served in the state legislature, for ten years.

Served in the United States Congress for ten years.

And on top of all of that, he showed his humaneness when he went back to Beaufort and his former master passed away, leaving, his widow, penniless.

Robert Smalls brought her back into the home, where she had presided over his enslavement and kept her there, until she passed away in 1904.

That, to me, no person in the history of this state can measure up to that.

Gavin> In his multiple congressional time served as well, he had to fight.

I mean, he was fighting in the war.

He went back to fight, and they said, please don't, "We want you recruiting people", which he did.

And then he kept fighting for his congressional seat.

<Sure.> Especially in light of intimidation and threats against his life too.

And of course, your praise for Smalls is evident, and, very much so needed.

But your disdain for Robert Carlos De Large, who was another member of the eight... he was a part of that initial crew of three that was in Congress, along with Joseph Rainey and Robert Elliot.

They were part of that 42nd Congress.

But De Large he was prosperous, enjoyed, some status with White folk because of his skin color.

You talk about colorism in your book too, a lot, the differences between these members.

And he tried to straddle that line of, you know, how to deal with color and how to deal with getting along with the Whites and getting along with the Blacks and trying to make that work.

What was your take on De Large?

Why did you find him kind of, maybe so unsavory?

It kind of comes through in the book a little bit, which I'm sure you did.

Yeah.

Rep.

Clyburn> He was so dishonest about it.

You know, the fact in that is, if you feel this way... This guy, because of the way he felt he left Aiken and went to Charleston for one purpose only because people who were called in those days, mulattos, people of mixed race, had an elevated status, in, in Charleston.

And he could get an education, because of that.

That is why he went to Charleston in the first place.

And when the war broke out there, remember that he went to Charleston, before the war, When the war broke out, he joined the Confederate Army.

You got Robert Smalls, being forced to serve.

And you got people like Joseph Rainey, who was forced to serve.

He refused and left the country.

Moved to Bermuda to keep from serving.

But this guy served and not only that, looked to benefit from it.

And when he saw that the union was winning, he tried to switch sides.

Even after all of this, and he ran for office, it was very clear in that one term that he served, that, he was trying to take advantage of the skin color issue.

And that's why it's going to make some people uncomfortable.

But if you read that part of the book, I call it colorism, because it still exists today.

Gavin> And it's a fascinating back story too, for a lot of people that maybe don't know the ins and outs of that and that unfortunate prejudice.

But when you talk about Rainey, he became the first Black person to serve in the U.S.

House, coming in, December 1870.

And that was due to a special election.

But that put him in the history books before the others.

And he served four terms, as well.

So what do you take with Joseph Rainey when you see him in the halls of Congress?

I know there's an exhibit with him up there.

Seeing him in there?

Gavin> Rep.

Clyburn> Well, when I got to Congress, there was no hint, at least I saw none that Joseph Rainey had ever served there.

And so, I undertook, an effort along with others, to rectify that.

And we did.

And then on the 150th anniversary of his having been sworn in, we renamed, at my, resolution, that I offered they build a room inside on the first floor of the capital.

It had to be room 150 to celebrate his 150th anniversary of his having been sworn in.

And it happened to be one of the rooms that he served in.

It was the Indian Affairs room at the time he was serving, but he served in that room.

And so I thought, that it was necessary, to do that.

And I am very pleased that Congress agreed.

It's kind of interesting that I hope he doesn't mind me saying this.

But the, he was from Georgetown.

And Congressman Rice, who was serving, from Georgetown, in the, what's now the 7th Congressional District.

And he had been walking by Joseph Rainey's house in Georgetown, all of his life, had no idea, of who Rice was.

And when he saw his portrait.

He inquired about it.

And to his credit, when we dedicated that portrait, he came and stood with us.

That should not be.

And that's why, writing this book was so important.

Here's this guy, servant, serving the same people that Joseph Rainey had served, walking by his house every day.

Not every knowing, that, that was the first African American to be sworn in, to the United States House of Representatives.

Now, I want to emphasize for people, there are two, African-Americans you hear a lot, a lot about, Revels and Bruce.

They were senators and they were from Mississippi.

And they were not elected because back then senators were not elected.

Gavin> And then we, I don't want to go through all of them in detail, but one other very important one I want to talk about is our Alonzo Ransier who was in Congress for a term and then also became the first of two Black lieutenant governors we had in our state.

Because back then, I mean, I think people don't really understand that, they always hear the term, since Reconstruction.

And they don't realize that, you know, in 1872, the State House had 96 Black representatives, and by 19, by 1890, there's only seven.

I mean, there was such a change, and we can talk about how that disenfranchisement and how policies and tactics evolved in light of the 1872 election.

But, tell me about Ransier and what his influence was like.

Rep.

Clyburn> Ransier served a short term.

He was also of mixed race.

Ransier, I compare in the book to John Lewis.

He had a demeanor, that made him, pretty acceptable to people.

He really, was quite, a little bit like... And, I thought about this after I finished the book, I read one time that Carl Sandburg, who wrote a biography of Abraham Lincoln.

And, he said of Lincoln that he was as soft as a drifting fog, yet as hard as steel.

That's John Lewis, and that was Alonzo Ransier.

Ransier to me, was one of those real, he demonstrated his life, how cruel, the world became for these Blacks.

He had been lieutenant governor.

He had been a member of Congress.

Yet when he passed away, he was living in a boarding house and was, was a street sweeper, in Charleston, and, I think it was, it may have been W.E.B.

Dubois, I believe, who wrote a book about Ransier.

I think Booker Washington, Booker T Washington mentioned him, in one of his books, having run into him, in Charleston, and seeing him.

He was working, handing bricks to bricklayers.

It's how cruel it became.

But you mentioned Robert Brown Elliott, was also an interesting person who was now a South Carolinian.

He came to South Carolina from Massachusetts, and became the first Black speaker of the House.

We had two Black speakers, of South Carolina legislature, General Assembly, or South Carolina House of Representatives.

He became one of them, but when he died, he was living in New Orleans and died penniless.

The world was very cruel, to these people, though Robert Brown Elliott was brilliant, one of the best lawyers, in this state.

In fact, recognized as the best, yet, because of his skin color, he died penniless.

Gavin> Yeah, Your book does a really great job about explaining some of these massive speeches, the important, lofty speeches that they gave in the House, dealing with, you know, equality, essentially, and how they can be treated the same as, as our laws is supposed to be, but, of course, they were fighting to, to continue to refine our laws and search for that more perfect union.

But let's get to George Murray, who was the last one before you.

And he had a term that ended in 1897, and it was 95 years until you were elected.

So, walk me through George Murray's last term, and then the 95 year gap, which you can expound upon.

Rep.

Clyburn> Well... I'm the ninth.

The first eight, served honorably...yet, there are 95 years between number eight and number nine.

And this book, is about what led to that 95 year gap and why it is a cautionary tale.

George Washington Murray is interesting to me because we both come from the same hometown.

All the others were from, basically the Lowcountry.

Now, Robert Brown Elliott... And it's kind of interesting because of the way they drew lines.

I have seen Robert Smalls, who was from Beaufort listed in the history books as the congressman from Edgefield.

He was away from his... <Expansive district> Absolutely.

<You know about that.> That tells you a little bit about gerrymandering.

Gavin> Yeah.

That's where it all started.

And that's when he really started seeing (indiscernible).

Rep.

Clyburn> That's exactly right.

Where the seventh Congressional district, looked, a little like, a lot like, what I just saw, somebody draw up to be the sixth Congressional district, in the next election, running from the Battery all the way up to North Carolina line.

That's exactly what they did.

And right after it, when all of this was going on, in the 1890s, he, to me was an interesting guy.

He was educated.

We can't, find out much about how he got educated, but I know one thing.

He ended up a school teacher in Sumter, at Rafting Creek, a school that my youngest brother was band director of later on.

He, was also, the one who moved to Charleston, as I did, and, he shows up, in a lot of my family, oral history, though no one has ever admitted, exactly why he's in that history.

I've hired two companies to, trace my family tree on my father's side, and none of them ever have been able to tell me exactly who my father's father was.

So there were all kinds of rumors floating around about him.

But this guy, ended up, one of the wealthiest and one of the largest landowners in South Carolina.

But because, he had developed, a scheme, we called it that, I call it that reluctantly, to allow land ownership, so people could vote, he was indicted.

And because of false testimony, sentenced to five years of hard labor.

But rather than doing that, he turned over all of his wealth, to his attorney, you know, the taking of his family, and he left and went to Chicago where he, passed away and where he's buried.

Gavin> And then there was that gap the 95 years we were talking about, and then, you being the ninth, you also weaving your journey to Congress, as you...represented the sixth Congressional district consecutively since 1992.

But you mentioned being sworn in as one of 17 blacks.

Eight were the first since reconstruction.

Tell me about what you remember from when you got sworn in, in 1993.

Rep.

Clyburn> It's kind of interesting because of the history and because, of many of my close friends knowing how I felt about this.

I mean, the guy that ran my campaign, Bill DeLoache had worked for Dick Riley We were fraternity brothers, and he knew how emotional I was about some of this.

So we decided rather than... wait to be sworn into Congress, we would have a mock swearing in.

And we had it at the State House.

And it was very interesting.

All but one of the delegation showed up for that, ceremony.

And I remember the conversation I had with Strom Thurmond, that day.

He didn't dwell on my being the first since post-Reconstruction.

He dwelled on my relationship with his sister, Gertrude.

Gertrude, and I worked in state government together in the same office.

And she had shared with him, some of her relationship with me.

And that led to a relationship with Strom Thurmond.

That, taught me, a lot about South Carolina's government and South Carolina's culture, because his thing was, I, because of my relationship with his sister, that meant, I had a relationship with him.

And I never had but one cross word with him.

And it was not a cross word.

It was a cross purpose.

when I was trying to name the Matthew J. Perry, United States Courthouse.

Strom wanted his name on that courthouse.

And it's kind of interesting to me because his name was, already on the Federal Building.

But, I won that battle, and it got (indiscernible) named for Matthew Perry.

But it taught me the value of relationships.

And I learned from Strom Thurmond that irrespective of whatever my differences might be, that building relationships, could be the difference in one's success in the United States Congress.

I owe that to Strom.

I learned legislating from Fritz Hollings.

He, and Strom were the two senators, I learned how to... It eventually took time to teach me, how to do it and Strom showed me.

Gavin> It's different now.

Rep.

Clyburn> It's totally different now.

And it, it bothers me sometimes, when I see people.

They get an opinion about you based upon who your friends are rather than what your relationships might be.

And they don't allow the relationships to develop.

And that came home to me when I saw what happened to John Boehner, who was a Republican, Speaker of the House, who I played golf with often.

John and I, were good friends.

We had developed a relationship.

When Barack Obama got elected president, and Boehner played a round of golf with Barack Obama.

He was ostracized.

And that led, quite frankly, that led to his downfall.

Gavin> For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well, South Carolina.

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