AS WE SAID, ABORTION HAS BEEN CENTRAL TO AMERICAN POLITICS EVER SINCE ROE V. WADE GAVE WOMEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE BACK IN 1973 AND THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNING IT WOULD BE A MAJOR ISSUE IN THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

LIZ IS A GOP STRATEGIST AND JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN -- MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE FALLOUT AT THE BALLOT BOX FOR AMERICANS.

MICHEL: THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

YOUR PIECE WAS CALLED " REPUBLICANS ARE FINDING OUT THAT PRO-LIFE MEANS A LOT OF THINGS TO A LOT OF PEOPLE," DO THEY REALLY NOT KNOW?

GUEST: I THINK THEY GENUINELY DID NOT KNOW.

I HAVE CONSIDERED MYSELF TO BE IN A LUCKY POSITION BECAUSE OF THE WEIGHT I ANSWERED REPUBLICAN POLITICS WAS THROUGH THE BLOCK IS FEAR, WHICH MEANT -- BLOGOSP HERE, WHICH MEANT I WAS GETTING PAID TO ARGUE POLICY WITH PEOPLE ONLINE, ALL DAY, IN COMMENT SECTIONS, DIARIES, COUNTER POSTS, AND WHATNOT.

I FEEL LIKE I GOT TO 2006 AND 2007 BECAUSE I HAD A LOT OF DEBATES WITH PEOPLE WHERE I WOULD RESENT MYSELF AS BEING I AM A MODERATELY PRO-CHOICE REPUBLICAN, AND I BELIEVE IT SHOULD BE LEGAL IN THE FIRST THREE MONTHS I DON'T SEE AN ALTERNATIVE.

I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT IMMEDIATELY WHEN I INTRODUCED MYSELF THAT WAY, THEN PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, YOU ARE PRO-LIFE.

OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, OH MY GOD, YOU ARE HEATHEN.

ALL OF IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED FROM DAY ONE, OR OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, HOW CAN YOU BE ANTI-ROE AND I AM STILL PRONE EVERYTHING ELSE?

IT HAS BEEN EVIDENT FOR YEARS NOW FOR WHAT REPUBLICANS HAVE TREATED AS PRO-LIFE WAS LARGELY A COLLECTION OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT THINK THAT ROE WAS CORRECTLY DECIDED BUT THEY DID NOT AGREE WITH THE UNDERLYING POLICY AND WHAT IT SHOULD BE.

AND NOW WE HAVE TO CONFRONT THAT.

IT TURNS OUT IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE PARTY AND WE ARE FINDING OUT THAT THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS, I THINK, SIGNIFICANTLY MORE ABORTION FRIENDLY THAN WHAT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS HAVE THOUGHT AND HOPED FOR AND ARE COMFORTABLE WITH.

YOU SAY YOU ARE MODERATELY PRO-CHOICE, BUT YOU ARE ANTI-ROE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

GUEST: I THINK ROE WAS INCORRECTLY DECIDED.

THAT GOES BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL WHEN WE DID CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATES.

AS SOMEONE AT THAT TIME HE WAS 15, HAVING THE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING FRIENDS GETTING PREGNANT AND HAVING TERMINATIONS, I WAS EXCITED WHEN I GOT TO BE ON THE PRO-ROE TEAM, THE PROBLEM CAME WHEN I ACTUALLY READ THE DECISION AND IT READ COUNTER ARGUMENTS TO IT, LEGAL COUNTER ARGUMENTS, NOT THINGS THAT WERE -- WHERE AT WHAT POINT DOES LIFE EXIST?

JUST STRAIGHT LEGAL ARGUMENTS.

I JUST THOUGHT THE DECISION WAS REALLY BADLY WRITTEN UP AND MADE LITTLE SENSE FROM A CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS.

BEING SOMEBODY WHO DID GO ON TO BECOME A LAWYER, MY VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT ROE WAS INCORRECTLY DECIDED, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT SPECIFICALLY THINKING ABOUT THE KINDS OF SITUATIONS THAT MY FRIENDS WERE CONFRONTING, I DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU LEGISLATE TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE IN THOSE SITUATIONS CAN HAVE ABORTIONS UNLESS YOU HAVE A POLICY LIKE THE ONE THAT I GUESS I WOULD SAY I THINK MOST STATES WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO ADOPT, WHICH IS KEEP IT LEGAL THE FIRST THREE MONTHS AND STOP IT AFTER THAT WITH EXCEPTIONS WHERE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN JEOPARDY, RIGHT?

BUT EVEN THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE PRO-LIFE THAN IT TURNS OUT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS PRO-LIFERS HELD THAT POSITION FOR YEARS.

MICHEL: WHAT IS THAT POSITION THAT YOU ARE SAYING SURPRISES YOU?

GUEST: WHAT I AM SURPRISED TO LEARN IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS OF WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO OR VARIOUS ELECTION RESULTS IN KENTUCKY, AND I TALKED TO PEOPLE, I AM FINDING THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO TRADITIONALLY DESCRIBES THEMSELVES AS BEING PRO-LIFE REPUBLICANS WHO THINK YOU CAN CUT IT OFF AFTER MONTH FIVE, EXCEPT WHERE THE MOTHER'S LIFE IS IN JEOPARDY, OR RAPE OR INCEST, BUT THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SORT OF LACKS AND ACCEPTING OF KEEPING ABORTION LEGAL AND EVEN WHAT I WOULD SAY.

MY POSITION IS IF YOU ARE ARGUING IT SHOULD BE LEGAL REALLY AT ALL, THAT PUTS YOU IN A POSITION WHERE I THINK YOU ARE MORE PRO-CHOICE THAN PRO-LIFE, BUT I THINK IT IS TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT THESE WORDS REALLY DON'T MEAN WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY MEANT.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO THOUGHT THAT WHEN PEOPLE SAID THEY WERE PRO-LIFE, IT WAS A FIRM CONCRETE STATEMENT, NOT SOMETHING ASPIRATIONAL, AND I THINK THEY REALLY BELIEVED THAT MEANT THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION, THAT EMBRYO, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT EMBRYO, THAT FERTILIZED EGG, THE FETUS, WHEN YOU GET TO THAT POINT, FROM DAY ONE, THAT WOULD BE PROTECTED, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF IF YOU ARE A ONE EXCEPTION PRO-LIFER, WHERE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN JEOPARDY, IF YOU ARE A THREE LIFER, WHERE IT IS RAPE OR INCEST, AND THAT TURNS OUT IT IS A RELATIVELY SMALL PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES PRO-LIFE.

MICHEL: LET'S TALK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE NOW IN TERMS OF THE POLITICS AND THE STATES.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING OUT, VERY MUCH THE STORY OF THE MOMENT IS THIS YOUNG WOMAN IN TEXAS WHO IS ALREADY A MOM, 30 YEARS OLD, HAS TWO KIDS, HAD A WANTED PREGNANCY AND HAS NOW LEARNED THERE IS A FETAL ABNORMALITY, THE FETUS IS UNLIKELY TO LIVE AT ALL, AND HER HEALTH IS COMPROMISED, NOT JUST HER HEALTH, BUT HER ABILITY TO HAVE FUTURE CHILDREN IS COMPROMISED.

THAT IS THE ADVICE SHE HAS BEEN GIVEN.

OK, SO NOW A LOWER COURT HAS SAID SHE CAN HAVE AN ABORTION, BUT THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT SHE CANNOT.

SHE HAS LEFT THE STATE SO THAT SHE CAN HAVE THE PROCEDURE, AS SHE SAYS, TO PRESERVE HER FUTURE FERTILITY, BUT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE WILL HOLD DOCTORS TO ACCOUNT IN THIS STATE IF HE FELT THAT THEY MADE THE WRONG DECISION, AND YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS IS JUST LIKE -- WHAT DO YOU AS A PERSON WHO THINGS ABOUT THIS POLITICALLY AND MORALLY, HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

GUEST: I WILL START WITH THE POLITICAL SIDE BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THAT IS EASIER, WHICH IS KIND OF A TROUBLING THING TO SAY.

LOOK, POLITICALLY, I THINK ONE THING THAT THE TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO BUSINESS WITH SOONER RATHER THAN LATER IS THAT HIS ESTATE HAS BEEN MOVING IN A PURPLE DIRECTION REALLY FAST.

REALLY, REALLY FAST.

YOU HAVE SEEN A LOT OF INFLUX TO TEXAS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SOCIALLY MORE LIBERAL, BUT THEY DON'T LIKE THE TAX REGIMES YOU FIND IN BLUE STATES.

TEXAS DOES NOT HAVE PERSONAL INCOME TAX, FOR INSTANCE, SO IT IS APPEALING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

NONE OF THE THINGS KEN PAXTON WILL FIND, IN ADDITION TO OTHER LIABILITIES THAT HE HAS THAT WILL MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO RETAIN POLITICAL POWER IN TEXAS AS SUCH, I AM PRETTY SURE THAT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE ELECTORATE AS A WHOLE IS, HE IS IN THE SIGNIFICANT MINORITY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT HE AND OTHER TEXAS REPUBLICANS CHOOSE TO DO ABOUT THAT, THEIR CALL, NOT MINE, THEY HAD GOTTEN LUCKY IN SOME REGARDS BECAUSE AS TEXAS SHIFTS PURPLE, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN TEXAS HAS WEAK CANDIDATES, BUT I THINK THEY WILL END UP CONFRONTING THE REALITY, THE SAME AS J.D.

VANCE HAS -- MICHEL: THE OHIO SENATOR.

GUEST: J.D.

VANCE SAID THE ONLY POLITICAL TERRAIN THAT WOULD BE FRUITFUL FOR REPUBLICANS TO FIND ON WOOD TO STOP LATE-TERM ABORTION BUT MAKE SURE YOU HAVE EXCEPTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, HAVE THE PARTY BECOME THE PARTY OF STOPPING LATE-TERM ABORTIONS AND OFFERING EXCEPTIONS, WHICH IS SIMILAR TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID.

MORALLY, I DON'T FEEL I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE CASE TO MAKE A PERSONAL JUDGMENT HERE, SO I AM GOING TO DECLINE TO DO SO.

I WILL SAY THAT I DEFINITELY DO SEE A LOT OF ABORTIONS OR HEAR OF A LOT OF ABORTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT THERE THAT I PERSONALLY THINK ARE AVOIDABLE AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED, AND I DO THINK THAT THERE IS THE MORAL IMPERATIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-LIFE TO GO AND ADVOCATE FOR THAT AND LOOK AT CHANGING PARTS AND MINDS.

MICHEL: THE QUESTION I HAVE IS, WHAT IF THIS WOMAN DIES?

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO THEN?

GUEST: IT SOUNDS LIKE IF SHE HAS GONE OUT OF STATE TO HAVE THE ABORTION, PROBABLY THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING HAPPEN.

MICHEL: THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN HER CASE, SHE HAD THE FINANCIAL WHEREWITHAL AND EDUCATION TO REACH OUT TO AN ATTORNEY TO REPRESENT HER IN THIS CASE AND FELT SAFE IN GOING PUBLIC, WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T, BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE DOES DIE?

GUEST: THAT IS THE QUESTION BECAUSE AT SOME POINT, THAT COULD HAPPEN AND WE HAVE HAD SITUATIONS WHERE THINGS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT IN THE HEADLINES AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE MADE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS FACTUAL AND WHAT IS MADE UP, AND WE FOUND OUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT THE STORY WAS JUST AS BAD AS WHAT WE WERE LED TO BELIEVE FROM THE GET GO.

THOSE TYPES OF STORIES BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO LOOK DIFFERENTLY AT THE QUESTION, DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A STRINGENT REGIME?

LOOK AT OKLAHOMA RATHER THAN TEXAS BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION PRO-LIFE, OR DO YOU WANT TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT GOES TO THE MOMENT YOU ARE IN DELIVERY, LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE IN CERTAIN BLUE STATES?

THAT IS A HORRIBLE CHOICE THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE NOT GOING TO WANT TO CHOOSE EITHER ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

MICHEL: LAST MONTH, OHIO, WHICH HAS BEEN CONSIDERED A SWING STATE, BUT HAS GONE SOLIDLY FOR TRUMP, VOTED TO ENSHRINE ACCESS TO ABORTION IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT DID THAT SIGNAL TO YOU?

GUEST: I THINK IT SIGNALED, BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS LEGALLY, I DON'T THINK LEGISLATORS IN OHIO ARE EVEN CAPABLE OF ERODING THAT.

THAT IS NOW A FIRM CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION, SO OHIO'S ABORTION REGIME LOOKS CONSIDERABLY MORE LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE IN A VERY, VERY PROGRESSIVE STATE, A VERY, VERY COMFORTABLE WITH ABORTION STATE LIKE CALIFORNIA, AND THE STATE THAT IS REGULAR, LIKE OKLAHOMA, OR APPARENTLY ESTATE THAT IS NOT AS RED, LIKE -- A STATE THAT IS NOT AS RED, LIKE TEXAS, IF THAT HAPPENED IN OHIO, HOW ARE PRO-LIFE REPUBLICANS IN TEXAS READING THE TEA LEAVES AND HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING?

I WOULD NOT ENVY THEIR JOB.

MICHEL: YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PRO-LIFE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE STARTED TO BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH THE FACT THAT AMERICA'S MATERNAL MORTALITY RATE IS HORRIBLE FOR AN ADVANCED INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY WITH PRESUMABLY HEALTH CARE THAT IS, FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE BEST IN THE WORLD, BUT, FOR OTHER PEOPLE, NOT AT ALL.

IF A BLACK WOMAN WERE IN THIS SITUATION, SHE WOULD DIE.

BLACK WOMEN HAVE THE HIGHEST RATE OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP.

SO IF PEOPLE ARE PRO-LIFE, WHY IS THERE NOT MORE POLICY ON PREVENTING MOTHERS FROM DYING IN CHILDBIRTH?

GUEST: I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE ARE STARTING TO SEE.

ONE THING INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT BEFORE YOU HAD ROE GO AWAY, ALL THE ATTENTION WAS FOCUSED ON ABORTION BANDS AND WHAT WE COULD DO AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE HAD THIS INJUSTICE, AND IT CONFIRMED HOW THAT WOULD ADJUST THE CALCULUS ON THE COURT.

NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN OVERTURNED, I AM HEARING A LOT ABOUT LAWS TO TOUGHEN UP ON CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS FROM DADS, LIKE SINGLE MOMS CANNOT DO IT ALONE, AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO DO IT ALONE.

AND IF WE ARE GOING TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT BEING IN A PRO-LIFE SOCIETY AND ADVOCATING FOR PRO-LIFE POLICY, THAT IS ONE THING WE CAN DO BECAUSE THE MORE THAT WOMEN FEEL THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUPPORTED FINANCIALLY, THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO CHOOSE ABORTION, AND I THINK THAT ALSO GOES TO MATERNAL HEALTH.

THAT IS SOMETHING I THINK HAS BEEN DISCUSSED IN THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY A LOT LESS HISTORICALLY, AND I THINK PART OF THAT IS WE HAVE HAD IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS A LOT MORE AND A LOT BETTER DATA ABOUT LOOKING AT MATERNAL HEALTH OUTCOMES.

PARTICULARLY, AS YOU SAY, AMONGST AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

RIGHT?

I FEEL LIKE IF WE WERE TALKING FIVE YEARS OR 10 YEARS AGO, WE JUST WERE NOT HEARING AS MUCH ABOUT THAT, AND I DON'T THINK THE DATA WAS AS GOOD.

INEVITABLY, THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE A FOCUS.

NOW, WE ARE IN A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THAT DATA AND GETTING CONCERNED AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT.

MICHEL: SO YOU ARE A CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST.

STRATEGIZE SOMETHING.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, DONALD TRUMP IS STILL THE FRONT RUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

THE PLATFORM FOR THE PARTY LAST TIME WAS BASICALLY LIKE HE SAID, LIKE WHATEVER HE SAID, DO YOU THINK THAT -- I MEAN, THAT IS WHAT IT WAS, RIGHT?

GUEST: IT IS TRUE.

I DON'T DISAGREE.

MICHEL: DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE EXPLICIT THIS YEAR?

IN 2024, SHOULD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SET OUT A PLATFORM AND SAY, THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVE?

GUEST: AS A GENERAL CONCEPT, I THINK PLATFORMS ARE IMPORTANT DOCUMENTS FOR PARTIES.

ALTHOUGH, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT VERY FEW CANDIDATES ARE GOING TO ADHERE TO THE PLAT ROOMS.

-- PLATFORMS.

I WILL SAY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CONTINUING SUSTAINED LOSSES, LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO, AND THEN YOU HAVE STATES THAT A RELATIVELY RED, HAVING ABORTION REGIMES THAT LOOK LIKE CALIFORNIA, FOR THOSE PEOPLE, HAVING A PLATFORM IN 2024 THAT IS LIKE WHATEVER DONALD TRUMP SAID, THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GREAT THING FOR THEM BECAUSE IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT WE KNOW, I AM NOT A TRUMP FAN, I HAVE NO INTENTION OF VOTING FOR HIM OR JOE BIDEN IN 2024, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE KNOW ONE THING IS THAT MOST REPUBLICANS REALLY DO THINK WHATEVER TRUMP SAYS IS PRETTY MUCH WHAT THEY SHOULD GO WITH AND WHATEVER POLICY THEY WANT TO ADOPT.

IF DONALD TRUMP SAYS THIS GUY IS PINK, PROBABLY A SOLID 81% OF REPUBLICANS WILL SAY, YEAH, IT IS PINK.

THIS IS ONE AREA WHERE TRUMP TAKING THE POSITION HE IS TAKING MIGHT ACTUALLY TURN OUT TO BE POLITICALLY BENEFICIAL FOR THE PARTY, CERTAINLY A LOT MORE BENEFICIAL THAN HIM SPENDING THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN TALKING ABOUT HOW HE THINKS THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

MICHEL: WHAT IS HIS POSITION?

GUEST: IT HAS NEVER BEEN 100% CLEAR, BUT HE THINKS THE POSITION THAT RON DESANTIS HAS TAKEN HIS WAY TO STRICT.

I BELIEVE HE HAS USED HARSH WORDS, LIKE HE HAS USED THE WORDS HARSH AND MAYBE DRACONIAN, BUT SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, BUT BASICALLY WHAT TRUMP IS SAYING, LOOK US ONLY ON BANNING LIFE TERM, AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE EXCEPTIONS.

SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE LIFE OF THE MOTHER, RAPE, INCEST, AND MY SUSPICION IS THAT IF YOU PUSHED HIM ON IT, WHILE DONALD TRUMP IS CERTAINLY NO MASTER OF LEGAL WORDSMITHING OR DRAFTING, MY SUSPICION IS IF YOU PUSHED HIM ON IT, HE WOULD PROBABLY WANT SOME SORT OF A HEALTH EXCEPTION IN THERE, TOO, BECAUSE I THINK HE PROBABLY WORRIES, AS WITH THIS TEXAS CASE, WHERE YOU HAVE A LIFE OF THE MOTHER EXCEPTION, THAT MIGHT NOT QUITE PROVIDE CLARITY TO ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS ONE, AND THAT IS, AS A LAWYER, THAT IS ONE OF THE PITFALLS THAT I THINK THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT FACES WITH THINGS LIKE WHAT WAS PUT ON THE BALLOT IN OHIO.

DRAFTING THIS STUFF CAN BE REALLY TOUGH, AND WRITING POLICY IN A WAY SO YOU DON'T INADVERTENTLY PREVENT SOMEONE WHO YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO ABORTION, IS INCREDIBLY FRAUGHT AND PERIL.

MICHEL: WHICH DO THE DEMOCRATS DO?

GUEST: IF THE DEMOCRATS ARE SMART, THEY WOULD LIKE TO TEE UP AS MANY CONSTITUTIONAL BALLOT MEASURES AS THEY CAN ON THIS ISSUE.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT WHERE THEY TEARED UP IN THE LANGUAGE ON THE PRO-LIFE SIDE OF THE EQUATION IS SUFFICIENTLY STRICT, WHICH I THINK IT TENDS TO BE.

IT COULD BE MORE THAN THE ELECTORATE ACTUALLY IS MORE PERMISSIVE THAN I PERSONALLY WOULD BE, THEY DO SEEM TO SEE SOME GAINS, AND THIS DOES SEEM TO BE SOMETHING THAT CAN DRIVE TURNOUT FOR THEM.

PERSONALLY, I HOPE THEY DON'T LISTEN TO THE WORD OF THIS AND THAT THEY DROP THE ISSUE.

I WOULD VERY MUCH HOPE WE DON'T SEE MORE STATES EMULATE THE EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN CALIFORNIA, WHICH PRETTY MUCH UNTIL YOU ARE IN THAT DELIVERY ROOM, YOU CAN TERMINATE, AND I THINK THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING FOR A MORAL -- FROM A MORAL OR ETHICAL STANDPOINT.

FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, IF YOU PRESENT PEOPLE WITH A CHOICE BETWEEN A TEXAS OR OKLAHOMA AND CALIFORNIA STYLE LEGAL REGIME, EVEN PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES PRO-LIFE OLD VOTE FOR THE CALIFORNIA LEGAL REGIME.

MICHEL: THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

GUEST: THANK YOU.