>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY".

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> I THINK THAT WEEK TWO AS HEAD OF STATE AND GOVERNMENT OF TWO IMPORTANT COUNTRIES IN THE AMERICAS, WE HAVE TO HAVE A VERY CIVILIZED RELATIONSHIP, A DEMOCRATIC RELATIONSHIP.

>> IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, BRITISH PRESIDENT LULA REACTS TO THE RETURN OF TRUMP, AS HE DISCUSSES WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR BRAZIL AND FOR THE PLANET.

>>> THEN -- >> TO MY FELLOW REPUBLICANS, YOU AREN'T VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT.

YOU ARE VOTING FOR DEMOCRACY.

>> FORM OF TRUMP STAFFER OLIVIA TROY CAMPAIGNED HARD AGAINST THE PRESIDENT ELECT, SO NOW WHAT?

WE GET SOME INSIGHT ON WHAT A SECOND TERM COULD BRING, AND IF SHE FEARS REPRISALS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> COULD PRESIDENT BIDEN BE VIEWED BY HISTORY LATER ON AS SORT OF THE LAST GASP OF THAT OLD ORDER?

>> IS THE SECOND COMING OF TRUMP THE END OF 80 YEARS OF U.S.

GLOBAL LEADERSHIP?

THE NEW YORK TIMES' DAVID SANGER TELLS DREW IVERSEN WHY HE THINGS IT COULD BE.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD, AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WE ARE, SYLVIA A ANNE SIMON B PROGRAM ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J GLESSNER, THE FILM AND M MISTY NO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, CREW AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM IN NEW YORK.

THE REALITY OF A SECOND MORE EMBOLDENED TERM OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS SITTING IN.

LEADERS FROM ACROSS THE GLOBE FLOODING HIM WITH CONGRATULATIONS AND TRYING TO GET HIS EAR ON ISSUES, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, TO UKRAINE, TO WIDE-RANGING TARIFFS.

AND OF COURSE, THERE IS THE CLIMATE AHEAD OF THE SUMMIT WHICH KICKS OFF NEXT WEEK.

TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION HAS BEEN SEEN AS A MAJOR BLOW TO EFFORTS TO OVERCOME THE EXISTENTIAL CLIMATE CRISIS.

NOW, ALL OF THESE TOPICS THAT WILL BE ON THE DOCKET UP AT THE G 20 SUMMIT IN BRAZIL LATER THIS MONTH WHERE HOST BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA WILL NO DOUBT BE SEEING PARALLELS BETWEEN TRUMP'S RETURN AND HIS OWN COUNTRY'S HISTORY WITH A FAR RIGHT POLITICIAN KNOWN AS THE TRUMP OF THE TROPICS, WHO SUPPORTERS STORMED GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS AFTER HE LOST OUT ON A SECOND TERM.

IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, CHRISTIAN SPOKE WITH LULA DA SSILVA ABOUT ALL THESE ISSUES.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT IS A GREAT PLEASURE TO COME BACK TO YOUR SHOW AND IT IS A GREAT PLEASURE TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN AND TALK TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> OKAY, SO, WHAT YOU WANT TO TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD, SINCE YOU HAVE CONGRATULATED DONALD TRUMP ON HIS RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE?

HE SAID THE WORLD NEEDS DIALOGUE.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

>> Translator: WELL, WHAT I MEAN WITH THAT IS THAT THE WORLD CANNOT CONTINUE TO SPEND $2,400,000,000,000 IN AN ARMS RACE AND HAVE A CONFLICT.

SHOULD SPEND THIS MONEY TO BUILD LITERACY PROGRAMS AND TO FEED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL STARVING AND HUNGRY IN THE WORLD, SO WHAT WE NEED IS TO LEARN HOW TO TAKE CARE OF THE POOREST PEOPLE, SO THAT THEY WON'T BE POOR ANYMORE, AND THAT WE CAN MANAGE AND BUILD AN ECONOMY FOR MASS CONSUMPTION BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THESE MASS CONSUMERS TODAY.

LESS MONEY FOR WAR AND MORE MONEY FOR PEACE, THIS IS THE SOLUTION FOR THE WORLD, THAT IS WHY THE G 20 IS MEETING ON A GLOBAL ALLIANCE AGAINST HUNGER AND POVERTY.

THIS WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT WILL BE DISCUSSED.

AND THEN, WE HAVE THE ENERGY TRANSITION, TO CONFRONT CLIMATE CHANGES, AND THEN WE HAVE ANOTHER ISSUE THAT IS THE U.N. REFORM AND THE BERKOWITZ INSTITUTIONS, AND THEN WE HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, TAXATION OF THE SUPERRICH.

WE HAVE 3000 PEOPLE IN THE WORLD THAT HAVE THE WEALTH WHILE YOU HAVE 733 MILLION PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL IN HUNGER IN THE WORLD AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE ALREADY HELD 130 MEETINGS, 22 WORKING GROUPS, AND FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A SOCIAL G 20 WITH THE EXHIBITION OF CIVIL SOCIETY AROUND THE WORLD AND WE ALSO HAVE A PROMINENT GROUP FOR WOMEN AT THE G 20, SO THESE ARE THE MARBLES THAT I WANTED TO CONVEY TO YOU, AND I AM SURE WE WILL HAVE A BEAUTIFUL G20 SUMMIT AND WE WILL MAKE IMPORTANT DECISIONS TO SEE IF WE CAN MAKE THE WORLD BETTER AND MORE HUMANISTIC ONCE AGAIN.

>> OKAY, SO, YOU ARE HAVING THIS MEETING, HOSTING IT IN BRAZIL LATER THIS MONTH, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, THEN, DO YOU THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP AS THE NEXT U.S. PRESIDENT WILL DO WHAT YOU SAY TO TALK ABOUT TAXATION, TO MAKE IT MORE FAIR FOR PEOPLE, TO MAKE IT MORE FAIR FOR WOMEN?

I JUST WANT TO NOTE THAT THE WORLD'S 10 RICHEST PEOPLE BECAME $64 BILLION RICHER FROM TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION.

THAT IS WHAT BLOOMBERG IS SAYING.

WHAT WILL YOU TELL DONALD TRUMP ABOUT YOUR VIEWS ON HOW TO MAKE A MORE EQUAL WORLD?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I BELIEVE WE HAVE TO SAY TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT IS THE FAR RIGHT, FIRST.

I THINK THAT WE TWO, AS HEADS OF STATES, AS TWO IMPORTANT COUNTRIES IN THE AMERICAS, WE HAVE TO HAVE A VERY CIVILIZED RELATIONSHIP, A DEMOCRATIC RELATIONSHIP, BECAUSE BRAZIL HAS A PRIVILEGED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S. WE ARE TRADE PARTNERS AND FOR MANY DECADES, MANY YEARS, THE STOCK INVESTMENT OF THE U.S.

IN BRAZIL IS TREMENDOUS, SO I BELIEVE THE TWO HEADS OF STATE, WHEN THEY MEET, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE INTEREST OF THE U.S. AT THE BRAZIL INTEREST, AND WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE RELATIONSHIP OF TWO HEADS OF STATE.

AND I HAVE A PAST TRACK BECAUSE I HAD A VERY EXCELLENT RELATIONSHIP WITH GEORGE W. BUSH WHEN I TOOK OVER IN 2003.

THEY SAID TO ME, IT IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT WITH BUSH, BUT IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY RELATIONSHIP WITH BUSH, I ALSO HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH OBAMA AND I HAVE A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND THIS RELATIONSHIP SHOULD CONTINUE, BECAUSE TWO HEADS OF STATE, ALTHOUGH THEY COULD HAVE DIVERGENCE OF POLITICAL, OR IDEOLOGICAL DIVERGENCE, ONE DAY WE CAN MEET IN THE INTEREST OF THE STATE, NOT PERSONAL INTEREST, AND SO WHAT I WANT TO DISCUSS WITH THE U.S. IS THE INTEREST OF 200- YEAR-OLD RELATIONSHIP OF BRAZIL AND THE U.S., WHAT BOTH COUNTRIES HAVE TO DO SO THAT WE CAN IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF THE PEOPLE THAT WE REPRESENT.

>> I DO WANT TO CONTINUE THIS ANALYSIS OF WHAT YOU THINK TRUMP WILL BRING.

AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS VERY MUCH IN COMMON WITH YOUR PREDECESSOR, JAIR BOLSONARO.

IN FACT, BOLSONARO WAS CALLED THE TRUMP OF THE TROPICS.

AND BOLSONARO WANTS TO COME BACK TO BE PRESIDENT.

HE WANTS TO RUN AGAINST YOU.

HIS OWN PARTY CHAIRMAN SAID THAT HE WAS ROOTING FOR TRUMP, BECAUSE THAT WOULD HELP PUT THINGS IN ORDER, HERE.

CONSOLIDATING THE RIGHT IN THE LARGEST WESTERN DEMOCRACY.

SO, DO YOU THINK TRUMP IS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR VISION OF THE PEOPLE?

OR, WILL IT HELP BRING BOLSONARO BACK, LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR THAT?

>> Translator: WELL, BOLSONARO WAS PRESIDENT AND I DEFEATED HIM.

IF HE WAS SUPPORTING TRUMP, HE HAS NO VOTES IN THE U.S. AND HE CAN'T WIN THE ELECTIONS WITH THAT.

I HAVE THE FOLLOWING NEWS TO THE WORLD, I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE DISCUSSIONS OF THE U.S., I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE DEBATES ON TELEVISION, AND I BELIEVE EACH CANDIDATE ESTABLISHED A STRATEGY TO WIN THE ELECTIONS, AND I WANT TO SAY, VERY CLEARLY TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THAT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, I WOULD LIKE A RESPECTFUL RELATIONSHIP AS THE HEAD OF STATE OF BRAZIL AND I HOPE YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME RESPECT FOR THE RELATIONSHIP AS THE HEAD OF THE U.S.

IF WE MANAGE TO ESTABLISH THIS LINE OF BEHAVIOR, OF CIVILITY, OF RESPECT, THE REST BECOMES EASIER, AND WHEN I TOOK OVER, I VISITED BUSH IN 2002 -- AND ON THAT OCCASION, BUSH INVITED ME TO PARTICIPATE IN THE IRAQ WAR.

AND I TOLD PRESIDENT BUSH, "I CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN THE IRAQ WAR BECAUSE THERE ARE NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS THERE," BECAUSE SADDAM HUSSEIN AND THIRDLY BECAUSE IRAQ IS 1300 KILOMETERS FROM BRAZIL, AND THEN I WAGE WARS AGAINST HUNGER AND POVERTY AND WE MANAGED TO END WITH HUNGER IN BRAZIL, AND IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, HUNGER WENT BACK, WHEN I TOOK OFFICE, NOW 33 MILLION PEOPLE WERE STARVING AND WE ALREADY LIFTED 22 1/2 MILLION PEOPLE FROM HUNGER, AND WE WILL LIFT ALL OF THE OTHER 10 MILLION LEFT UNTIL THE END OF MY TERM IN 2026.

>> I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY FIND IF TRUMP STICKS TO WHAT HE SAYS, HE DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO START FOREIGN WARS.

BUT, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE STAKES IN EUROPE.

WITH RUSSIA'S WAR AND ITS ILLEGAL INVASION OF UKRAINE, YOU HAVE DECIDED NOT TO HELP UKRAINE WITH WEAPONS.

PRESIDENT ZELSNKYY HAS SAID, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK BRAZIL IS TAKING RUSSIA'S SIDE.

AND HE BASICALLY SAYS THE PEACE PLAN THE SO-CALLED PEACE PLAN YOU HAVE COME UP WITH WITH CHINA SHOWS A LACK OF RESPECT TO KYIV'S POPULATION AND ITS POSITION.

HOW COULD YOU COME OUT WITH A PEACE PLAN IF YOU DON'T EVEN CONSULT THE ACTUAL PRESIDENT AND THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE?

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THAT?

>> Translator: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, TIME WILL BE THE MASTER OF REASON.

LET'S SEE WHO IS RIGHT, IF IT IS BRAZILS POSITION THAT WE ARE PREACHING FOR PEACE, BECAUSE WE ARE ONE OF THE VERY FIRST COUNTRIES TO CRITICIZE RUSSIA.

AND WE SAID TO RUSSIA THAT IT WAS NOT CORRECT, THE OCCUPATION OF THE UKRAINE COUNTRY OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY, WE CRITICIZED HARSHLY RUSSIA, AND WE DIDN'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS WAR BECAUSE WE ARE A PEOPLE OF PEACE.

BRAZIL IS A COUNTRY THAT HAS NO INSTIGATION WITH ANY COUNTRY WHATSOEVER IN THE WORLD AND WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANY LITIGATION WITH ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

WHEN THEY CAME TO SAY TO BRAZIL THAT WE SHOULD SEND WEAPONS TO ZELENSKYY, I SAID "NO."

I DO NOT WANT NO ONE IN RUSSIA, OR IN UKRAINE, THAT WILL BE DEAD BY BRAZILIAN WEAPONS.

WE WANT PEACE.

WHEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS COME TO THEIR REASON AND WANT TO TALK ABOUT PEACE, BRAZIL WILL BE WAITING TO DISCUSS WITH THE TWO COUNTRIES, FOR THEM TO GO BACK TO PEACE, AND FOR THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

WE MADE A PROPOSAL TOGETHER WITH CHINA, AND THERE ARE SIX POINTS, AND THESE POINTS CAN ONLY BE TALKED EFFECTIVELY WITH THE TWO PRESIDENTS, AND WE HAVE ALREADY PARTICIPATED IN MANY MEETINGS, I HAVE ALREADY MET WITH ZELENSKYY IN NEW YORK CITY, I HAVE TALKED WITH PUTIN BY PHONE, SO FOR THE MEANTIME, BOTH DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT PEACE.

WHEN ONE OF THEM OR BOTH OF THEM WANT TO, I'M WILLING TO PARTICIPATE IF THEY WANT TO DISCUSS PEACE, TO DISCUSS ANY KIND OF PEACE, AND I AM VERY HAPPY WHEN YOU SAY THAT WE RELY ON TRUMP'S DISCOURSE, HE IS GOING TO END THIS WAR.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT!

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO END WITH THE WAR, BECAUSE WE NEED PEACE.

THE WORLD NEEDS PEACE, AND TO LIVE IN PEACE, AND TO GROW ECONOMICALLY, AND WE NEED PEACE SO THAT WE CAN IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE OF THE HUMAN BEINGS THAT ARE BEING DISPOSABLE AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT IS RIGHT, I AM, AND I CAMPAIGNED TO THE OUTRAGEOUS LEADERS OF THE WORLD, IT IS NECESSARY THAT WE SHOULD HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO BECOME OUTRAGED WITH THE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS THAT ARE FORGOTTEN BY THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE PLANET AND EVEN IN BRAZIL, AND I SAY EVERY DAY, WE NEED TO STOP TO LOOK, AS IF THEY WERE INVISIBLE ON THE WORLD.

NO, THERE ARE HUMAN NEEDS IN THE U.S., IN BRAZIL, IN ALL AFRICAN COUNTRIES, IN LATIN AMERICA, IN CHINA, SO WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH GREAT RESPECT, TREAT WITH RESPECT, THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO OPPORTUNITY IN LIFE.

>> NOW, ON ANOTHER ISSUE, THERE HAS BEEN SOME GOOD NEWS FOR YOUR COUNTRY.

DEFORESTATION IN THE RAIN FOREST IS AT ITS LOWEST LEVEL SINCE 2015.

AND YOU ARE GETTING CREDIT FOR THAT.

YOU PLEDGED TO END DEFORESTATION BY 2030.

ARE YOU ON TARGET?

>> Translator: WELL, I DO HAVE A COMMITMENT THAT NO ONE ASKED ME TO TAKE THIS COMMITMENT.

I AM THE ONE WHO TOOK THIS COMMITMENT TO ANNOUNCE THAT BY 2030, WE WOULD END WITH THE DEFORESTATION IN THE AMAZON RESOURCE.

THIS IS MY COMMITMENT AND THE SAME WAY I COULD SAY TO YOU THAT BRAZIL IS HAVING A VERY INTERESTING MOMENT BECAUSE WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DISCUSSING THE CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE ENERGY ISSUE BRAZIL HAS, TO BE UNDEFEATABLE IN PRODUCING WIND POWER, SOLAR POWER, BIOMASS POWER, BIOFUELS, HYDROGEN, GREEN HYDROGEN, BRAZIL HAS AN EXTRAORDINARY ENERGY POTENTIAL AND WE WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY SO THAT BRAZIL, AMONGST MANY THINGS, WE COULD HAVE LOW CARBON AGRICULTURE OUTPUT.

YOU KNOW THAT BRAZIL HAS 90% OF ITS ENERGY MATRIX IS CLEAN ENERGY SOURCE, SO 50% IS GREEN AND THE WORLD ONLY HAS OTHER 50%.

ON THE ENERGY TRANSITION, BRAZIL WILL MAKE THINGS HAPPEN AND THAT HIS WIFE MY COMMITMENT WITH THE DEFORESTATION AND THE AMAZON RESOURCE AND I HOPE THAT THE RICH COUNTRIES GIVE A CONTRIBUTION OR MONEY THAT THEY HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE BECAUSE TO KEEP THE FOREST STANDING COSTS A LOT OF MONEY AND BECAUSE UNDER EACH TREE, THERE IS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE, THERE IS A FISHERMAN, THERE IS A PEASANT AND WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE FOREST, THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND THEY NEED TO LIVE.

THEY NEED TO HAVE THEIR LIVELIHOODS, SO IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE THAT THE FOREST IN THE COUNTRY THAT HAVE INDUSTRIALIZED 200 YEARS AGO, NOW THEY SHOULD TAKE THE COMMITMENT TO PAY FOR THOSE COUNTRIES THAT STILL HAVE FORESTS STANDING TO PRESERVE THEIR FORESTS BECAUSE I WILL NOT BE TAKING ONLY CARE OF THE AMAZON RAIN FOREST, I WILL BE TAKING CARE OF THE PLANET EARTH, THAT IS IN THE INTEREST OF THE U.S., IN THE INTEREST OF CHINA, IN THE INTEREST OF RUSSIA, MEXICO, AND IS IN THE INTEREST OF CHILE.

SO, THAT IS WHY PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE THE AWARENESS THAT TO KEEP THE FOREST STANDING AND THE AMAZON IN THE AMERICAS, IN CONGO AND IN INDONESIA, THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY FOR THAT AND PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT FOR US AND THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO, SO THAT CARBON CREDIT WILL REALLY START WORKING TO HELP THOSE COUNTRIES TO KEEP THEIR FOREST STANDING.

>> SO, YOU KNOW WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID IN HIS FIRST TERM, HE PULLED THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THE LANDMARK PARIS ACCORD.

DO YOU THINK HE IS GOING TO DO THE SAME THING AGAIN?

>> Translator: WELL, I BELIEVE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE HAS TO THINK OF THE INHABITANTS OF PLANET EARTH AND IF HE THINKS AS THE RULER OF THE MOST IMPORTANT, RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT HAS THE MOST TECHNOLOGY, THAT IS BETTER PREPARED HE HAS TO HAVE THE NOTION THAT THE U.S. IS IN THE SAME PLANET I AM SO ALL OF US WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MAINTENANCE OF THIS PLANET, OF THE EARTH.

WE NEED TO GUARANTEE THAT THE PLANET SHOULD NOT BE SUFFERING A WARMING OF MORE THAN 1.6 DEGREES.

WE NEED TO GUARANTEE THAT THE RIVERS SHOULD CONTINUE HEALTHY WITH CLEAN WATERS, SO WE NEED TO GUARANTEE THAT THE BIOMES OF OTHER COUNTRIES SHOULD BE PRESERVED, SO THIS IS A COMMITMENT THAT I HAVE NOT ONLY AS THE PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL, AS A HUMAN BEING.

THAT LIVES IN THE PLANET CALLED EARTH, AND THAT THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE TO LIVE, ON THE EARTH.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ELON MUSK, WHO IS A VERY GOOD FRIEND OF DONALD TRUMP AND WHO SPENT MILLIONS OF HIS OWN MONEY HELPING TO ELECT DONALD TRUMP.

YOU AND YOUR SUPREME COURT HAD A MAJOR STANDOFF OVER WHAT YOU ACCUSED HIM OF BASICALLY HAVING ACCOUNTS THAT WERE DAMAGING BRAZIL'S DEMOCRACY.

FINALLY, ELON MUSK COMPLIED.

BUT, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT HE MIGHT TRY AGAIN TO BRING THESE ACCOUNTS UP, PARTICULARLY BACKED BY HIS FRIEND, THE LEADER OF THE WORLD'S ONLY SUPERPOWER TO BE, THAT WOULD BE DONALD TRUMP.

>> Translator: WELL, THE ONLY THING THAT WE WANT IS THAT THIS BUSINESSMAN SHOULD TREAT THE COUNTRIES WITH RESPECT AND NOT USE FAKE NEWS TO INFORM THE PEOPLE, EITHER THE U.S. PEOPLE OR THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE NEED TO GO BACK TO CIVILITY AND HUMILITY BETWEEN HUMAN BEINGS.

I CAN'T IMAGINE TO INSTILL HATRED.

WE SHOULD NOT CONTINUE TO RAISE CONTROVERSY WHEN WE CAN ASSIMILATE PEACE, SIMULATE HUMANISM, AND OTHER FACILITIES.

IT IS AN OPTION FOR LIFE THAT WE HAVE TAKEN THAT HUMAN BEINGS SHOULD GO BACK TO BEING HUMAN AND HUMANISTIC, THAT PEOPLE SHOULD RESPECT EACH OTHER.

NO ONE IS OBLIGED TO JOY ANYBODY.

THE PEOPLE AS THEY ARE, TREAT THEM WITH THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE AND THEY ALSO HAVE TO TREAT THE OTHERS WITH RESPECT.

NOW, IF WE GO BACK TO CIVILITY AND TO LIVE UNDER A SYSTEM WHERE EVERYBODY HAS THEIR RIGHTS, AND THE RIGHTS OF ONE ENDS AND THE RIGHTS OF ANOTHER STARTS, WE WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER WORLD, A WORLD WITH MORE FAIRNESS, A HUMANITARIAN WORLD AND A WORLD THAT WILL BE SOCIALLY MORE FAIR FOR THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE ON THE PLANET, THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR BRAZIL AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR THE U.S. AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR CHILE, FOR ARGENTINA, BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR CHINA, AND FOR ALL THE COUNTRIES.

THAT IS TO SAY THAT IS NOT CORRECT FOR US TO SEE A COUNTRY, A STRONG STATE LIKE ISRAEL TO END WITH THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE ON THE GAZA STRIP, WHERE THOUSANDS OF WOMEN, MORE THAN 40,000 WOMEN AND CHILDREN WERE MURDERED, IN A WAR THAT IS UNFAIR, AND WE CONDEMNED HAMAS WHEN THEY COMMITTED THOSE CRIMES, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE CONDEMNED ISRAEL AGAINST THIS VENGEANCE THAT IS INHUMANE AGAINST THE GAZA STRIP.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE U.N. IS WEAKENED AND THEY CANNOT MAKE DECISIONS AND PEOPLE DO NOT ABIDE BY THE U.N.

DECISIONS, SO IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO GO BACK TO THE U.N. AND THAT WE SHOULD CHANGE THE U.N.

COMPONENTS.

WE CAN'T CONTINUE WITH 1945 U.N. CHARTER.

WE HAVE TO INCLUDE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL SO THAT WE HAVE A MUCH MORE -- WHEN THEY MAKE A DECISION WE HAVE TO ABIDE TO THAT DECISION, OTHERWISE IT IS USELESS TO MAKE DECISIONS IN INTERNATIONAL FORUMS.

I CAN GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

WHAT WE HAD ALREADY, WE HAVE THE KYOTO PROTOCOL THAT WAS NOT INVITED, WE HAVE THE PARIS AGREEMENT THAT WAS NOT FOLLOWED, WE HAVE ALREADY PROPOSED $100 MILLION THAT WASN'T FOLLOWED SO WE HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE OUR WORLD GOVERNANCE THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE STRONG SO WE CAN PASS THINGS, MAKES DECISIONS, AND ABIDE TO THEM, AND TO FILL THEM, OTHERWISE, THE WORLD WILL BECOME EACH ONE DOING WHAT THEY WISH, AND THEN WE WILL GO TO ANARCHY, AND ANARCHY DOESN'T LEAD US ANYWHERE.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, THERE ARE QUITE A FEW ELDERLY MEN RUNNING VERY IMPORTANT COUNTRIES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN, PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND YOU, YOURSELF, ARE, I BELIEVE, 79 YEARS OLD AND YOU SAY YOU WANT TO RUN FOR RE- ELECTION IN 2026.

ARE YOU GOING TO RUN FOR RE- ELECTION?

AND WHY?

WHAT ABOUT A YOUNGER GENERATION?

>> Translator: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY TO YOU WITH GREAT CARESS AND GREAT RESPECT, FIRSTLY, I HAVE 79 YEARS OF AGE AND I AM ASKING FOR GOD TO LIVE UNTIL 120.

IF GOD WILL ALLOW ME TO DO THIS.

I TAKE CARE OF MY HEALTH, I WAKE UP VERY EARLY, 5:30 IN THE MORNING TO HAVE TWO HOURS OF WORK OUT IN THE GYM.

I TAKE CARE OF MY BODY AND MY HEALTH.

I'M NOT A CANDIDATE FOR 2026.

WHAT I SAID IS IN 2026, I HAVE A COMMITMENT TO DELIVER TO THIS COUNTRY, THE ECONOMY GROWING, CREATING JOBS, WITH LESS PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DELIVER IN THIS COUNTRY.

EVERYBODY HAVING THREE MEALS, BREAKFAST, LUNCH, AND DINNER EVERY DAY.

PEOPLE THAT HAVE ACCESS TO EXPERT HEALTHCARE, THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR MY COUNTRY, THIS IS WHAT I'M GOING TO CHOOSE.

NOW, 2026, I'M GOING TO THINK ABOUT 2026 IN 2026.

IF THE PARTY SUPPORTS ME, I AM GOING TO DISCUSS THIS WITH GREAT NOBILITY, BECAUSE TO GOVERN IS NOT LIKE PLAYING SOCCER.

THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TO EXERCISE OR PRACTICE SPORTS.

IT IS NOT FOR YOU THAT IS GOING TO SOLVE THE WORLD GOVERNMENT PROBLEMS.

WHAT IS GOING TO SOLVE THE WORLD'S GOVERNMENT PROBLEMS IS THE COMPETENCE OF THE RULER, THE MIND-SET OF THE RULER, THE HEALTH OF US IN COMMITMENTS THAT THE RULER HAS.

NOW, WHEN IT COMES TO TIME OF THE PARTISANS THEM, THERE IS NO OTHER CANDIDATE TO CONFRONT SOMEONE THAT COMES FROM THE FAR RIGHT, THAT IS A NIHILIST, THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN MEDICINE, THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN SCIENCE.

I MAY RUN AGAIN BUT I HOPE IT WON'T BE NECESSARY AND I HOPE WE WILL HAVE OTHER CANDIDATES AND SO THAT WE CAN HAVE A GREAT POLITICAL RENOVATION IN THE COUNTRY AND IN THE WORLD.

>> PRESIDENT LULA DA SILVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> Translator: THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO YOU.

>>> ANOTHER CONCERN FOR LATIN AMERICAN LEADERS ESPECIALLY IN CENTRAL AMERICA IS DONALD TRUMP'S PLAN FOR THE MASS DEPORTATION OF MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

SOURCES TELL CNN THE GROUNDWORK IS ALREADY BEING LAID FOR SUCH ACTION.

IT IS JUST ONE POLICY THAT AN UNRESTRICTED TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COULD ENACT THAT WOULD DRAMATICALLY SHIFT AMERICA AND ITS NATIONAL SECURITY POLICIES.

SO, LET'S GET SOME INSIGHT NOW, OLIVIA TROY WORKED IN THE FIRST TRUMP WHITE HOUSE FOCUSING ON PARTICULAR ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND WAS AN ADVISER TO THEN VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE, SHE FORCEFULLY SPOKE OUT AGAINST TRUMP AND CAMPAIGNED FOR KAMALA HARRIS AND SHE JOINS ME NOW.

OLIVIA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

SO, THIS TIME AROUND, TRUMP'S VICTORY LOOKS A BIT DIFFERENT, HE WON A CLEAR NATIONAL MANDATE, IT LOOKS ALL THAT CERTAIN HE HAS ONE OVER THE SENATE AND WHILE WE ARE STILL COUNTING THE VOTES IN TERMS OF THE HOUSE, IT LOOKS POSITIVE FOR REPUBLICANS, AS WELL.

GIVEN THAT, WHAT YOU EXPECT HIM TO DO WITH THAT MANDATE?

>> WELL, I THINK WE SHOULD EXPECT PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST EXTREME AGENDAS WE HAVE SEEN FROM HIM, YET.

I THINK HE NOW HAS THIS TOP COVER, I WOULD SAY, IN THE PUBLIC EYE OF AN AGENDA HE HAS PROPOSED AND THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE AGENDA PART OF 2025, SO I THINK GIVEN THAT THIS IS A SITUATION AND HE WILL HAVE UNCHECKED POWER IF THEY DO, INDEED, TAKE THE HOUSE AS WELL, I THINK WE ARE LOOKING AT SOME PRETTY EXTREME MEASURES, HERE.

>> WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT UNCHECKED POWER COULD LOOK LIKE?

BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN, THAT IF REPUBLICANS CONTROL BOTH CHAMBERS, OBVIOUSLY HE'S GOT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT WHERE THE SUPREME COURT LIES, GIVEN THAT A NUMBER OF THESE JUSTICES WERE HAND-PICKED BY DONALD TRUMP AND WE HAVE SEEN HOW THEY HAVE RULED OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

WHAT DOES UNCHECKED POWER ALLOW FOR?

BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE SAY THAT YOU ARE BEING ALARMIST, THAT THERE ARE STILL LAWS ON THE BOOKS, THAT THERE IS STILL A CONSTITUTION.

WALK US THROUGH THE LIMITS TO THE LAWS AS THEY EXIST NOW, WITH UNCHECKED POWER?

>> YES, AND I ACTUALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, PEOPLE SAY THIS IS HYPERBOLE AND THE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS WILL HOLD.

AS SOMEONE WHO LIVED THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FIRST-HAND FOR ALL FOUR YEARS WHETHER I WAS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY -- WHICH OBVIOUSLY CARRIED OUT A LOT OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT HAD TO DO WITH IMMIGRATION, WHETHER IT WAS THE TRAVEL BAN OR OTHER FOREIGN SECURITY MEASURES -- AND THEN, WORKING INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE, THIS IS SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN BASIC RULE OF LAW.

AND HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN OUR LEGAL MEASURES OR RULES, AND INSTITUTIONS, AS SOMEONE WHO UNDERMINES OUR GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS, AND HE DID UNDERMINE THEM DURING HIS FIRST PRESIDENCY, SO I THINK WHEN HE HAS UNCHECKED POWER, THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE CONGRESSIONAL PUSHBACK WHEN HE TRIES TO DO THINGS, WHERE THEY ARE NOT CONGRESSIONALLY MANDATED, OR WHAT IF HE IS TRYING TO TRANSFER FUNDS TO ACTUALLY CARRY OUT THESE MASS RAIDS AND DEPORTATIONS?

IT CAN MANIFEST ITSELF IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND WHILE I UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WILL SAY, WELL, THE COURTS WILL HOLD, WE CAN LITIGATE THIS, THE LAWSUITS, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE HAS FULL CONTROL OVER THE LEGISLATIVE AND JUDICIAL PROCESS, AS WELL?

WHO PUTS THE BRAKES ON?

WHO ARE THE GUARDRAILS AT THAT POINT, IS MY QUESTION, THEN?

>> WE KNOW HE HAS JUST APPOINTED A CHIEF OF STAFF, SHE HAD RUN HIS CAMPAIGN, SUSIE WILES HAS RUN HIS CAMPAIGN, AS WELL, AND WE ARE HEARING SOME OF THE SAME RHETORIC FROM HER THAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM PREVIOUS CHIEFS OF STAFF, WE SHOULD NOTE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD FOUR CHIEFS OF STAFF OVER HIS TENURE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE LAST, JOHN KELLY, HIS FOUR STAR GENERAL, THAT ALSO SAID HE WAS GOING TO MAINTAIN ORDER, THAT HE WAS GOING TO CONTROL ACCESS TO AND FROM THE PRESIDENT AND THAT HE WILL BE DRIVING THE CAR AND NOT ANYONE ELSE AND WE SAW WHERE THINGS LANDED, THERE.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHO SUSIE IS, AND WHAT ARE THE EXPECTATIONS YOU THINK SHE BRINGS TO THE JOB?

>> WELL, LOOK, SUSIE HAS BEEN WELL RESPECTED IN REPUBLICAN CIRCLES, AND I THINK SHE RAN A SOLID CAMPAIGN FOR DONALD TRUMP, SHE GOT HIM ELECTED AND I THINK SHE HAS A LOT OF TRUST BY THE TRAUMA TEAM AND RIGHTLY SO, GIVEN WHAT SHE WAS ABLE TO CARRY OUT, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT SUSIE IS FALLING INTO THE CLASSIC MENTALITY OF LIKE, I WILL HAVE CONTROL AND I WILL BE ABLE TO MANAGE THIS SITUATION WHEN IT COMES TO DONALD TRUMP, BUT THE REALITY IS NO ONE CAN AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY EXAMPLES PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE BEFORE THEY REALIZE THAT NO ONE IS DIFFERENT THAN ANYONE ELSE.

AT SOME POINT, YOU WILL EITHER GET THROWN UNDER THE BUS, OR YOU WILL HAVE TO ABIDE BY HIS BIDDING, AND YOU WILL HAVE TO BEND TO WHAT HE WANTS YOU TO DO.

I LIVED -- YOU KNOW, I WAS THERE FOR JOHN KELLY AS THE CHIEF OF STAFF.

I WAS THERE FOR MICK MULVANEY IS THE CHIEF OF STAFF.

I WAS THERE WHEN I SAW HIM TAKE A STAND, AND THEN HE GOT REMOVED FROM HIS ROLE AFTER SOME PRETTY STRONG PUSHBACK, AND THEN IT WAS MARK MEADOWS AND I LIVED THE MIKE MEADOWS ERA, SO EVERYBODY GOES IN SAYING, I'M NOT GOING TO LET THE CLOWN CAR, THE CHARLATANS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE REALITY IS ALL THE CIRCLES ARE INTERTWINED AND DONALD TRUMP LISTENS TO THEM SO THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE A DIRECT LINK TO THE OVAL OFFICE AND AN EAR THERE NO MATTER WHAT, AND SHE MAY TRY TO PUT MEASURES, BUT FROM WHAT I SAW FIRSTHAND, THOSE MEASURES ONLY LAST FOR A LITTLE WHILE, AND IF THERE IS ANYMORE OF THIS CASE, IT WAS ALSO FROM MY FORMER BOSS, MIKE PENCE, WHO DID TRY TO MANAGE THE SITUATION.

HE WAS SOMETIMES THE VOICE OF REASON, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO DO, WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO DO.

>> YOU WROTE A PIECE SHORTLY AFTER THE ELECTION SHORTLY AFTER HIS VICTORY FOR MSNBC.COM AND HERE ARE SOME OF THE CONCERNS YOU LAID OUT PRETTY SAID FIRST, WE MUST LAY -- WHAT ABOUT A SIGNIFICANT UPTICK IN POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

THEN, HE SAID THE FREE PRESS COULD INCREASINGLY FACE INTIMIDATION, COMPLY OR ELSE.

AND YOU WRITE THAT SHOULD HE PARDON THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION IS AS HE PLANS TO DO HE WOULD GRANT IMMUNITY TO EXTREMISTS WHO COULD COMMIT ACTS OF VIOLENCE ON HIS BEHALF.

WALK US THROUGH THOSE THREE CONCERNS THAT YOU LAID OUT THERE, AND THE LIKELIHOOD THAT YOU THINK -- LET'S START WITH THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, SOMETHING HE CAMPAIGNED ON.

YOU SEE HIM ACTUALLY DOING THAT?

>> YES, I DO.

AND AS CONCERNING AS IT IS, I WOULD HOPE THAT SOMEONE IN THE CIRCLE WOULD TRY TO STAND IN THE WAY OF THAT AND SAY THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE SEEN MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN POSING WITH SOME OF THAT, I THINK YOU HAVE SEEN HER ADVOCATE FOR THEM, THE LEADERSHIP SUPPORTS THIS IDEA AND I THINK THIS IS AN INDICATION HE WILL SEND TO HIS PROP AND FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT PROMISE BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE SHOWED UP AT THE U.S. CAPITOL THAT DAY FOR HIM, HE WAS THE ONE THAT DROVE THEM THERE, SO I THINK THAT IS A DANGEROUS MOMENT FOR OUR COUNTRY, THESE PEOPLE WILL FEEL EMBOLDENED BECAUSE THEY DID COMMIT A SERIOUS CRIME AND PUT OUR NATION'S LEADERSHIP AT RISK AND NOW THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE THIS WHOLE PASS OF THEY GOT PARDONED AND WHAT IS TO SAY THEY WOULDN'T GET PARDONED AGAIN?

SO, MY CONCERN IS THAT THEY WOULD CARRY OUT ACTS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST TRUMP'S CRITICS, AGAINST TARGETS, PEOPLE LIKE ME, PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA, SO I THINK I SAW IT DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM AND THE REASON I SAY THIS IS BECAUSE I WORKED, I WORKED WITH THE GUY THAT WAS SENDING THE PIPE BOMBS TO DEMOCRATIC LEADERS, TO MEDIA OUT WITH, I WORKED A NUMBER OF MASS SHOOTINGS THAT WERE RELATED TO HATE CRIMES THAT WERE RELATED TO THE RHETORIC TRUMP USES, WHETHER IT WAS GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, OR OTHER TYPES, SO I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THESE MOMENTS SERIOUSLY AND THAT IS MY CONCERN, WHEN I WRITE THIS PIECE.

I DO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE AN ESCALATION OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

I THINK PEOPLE LIKE THE JANUARY 6th PEOPLE IF HE PARDONS THEM, WILL BE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO BE WILLING TO ACT, THEY WERE WILLING TO ACT THE FIRST TIME, AND BY PARDONING THEM YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS OKAY.

>> ON THE ISSUE OF FREE PRESS AND THE INTIMIDATION FACING THE MEDIA, WE ARE USED TO THE TWEETS FROM HIS TIME IN OFFICE IN 2016, IT WAS A UNIQUE EXPERIENCE AT THE TIME, BUT THE INSTITUTIONS HELD, THE MEDIA HAS HELD ITS INDEPENDENCE.

WHAT CONCERNS YOU HAVE ABOUT THAT CHANGING OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS?

>> I THINK THE FIRST SIGN OF CONCERN IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE WASHINGTON POST, BECAUSE NOT SEEING THEM ENDORSING ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WAS A SIGNAL ABOUT WHAT WAS TO COME, AND NOW HERE WE ARE.

SO, I THINK IS GOING TO BE UP TO THE MEDIA AND THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MEDIA BECAUSE THEY DECIDE WHO THEY WANT TO BE IN THIS MOMENT WITH AUTHORITARIANISM AND WE DON'T TAKE THAT LIGHTLY.

WE SAW DONALD TRUMP UNDERMINE THE MEDIA THE FIRST TIME AROUND, I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN HE USED TO REFER TO YOU ALL A STEAK NEWS, I'VE BEEN OF THE PRESS CONFERENCES, I REMEMBER HOW AGGRESSIVE THEY WERE WITH ONE OF YOUR MAIN ANCHORS.

I REMEMBER ALL OF THOSE MOMENTS.

SO, I THINK YOU WILL SEE MORE OF THAT, DREAM OR PLAN WOULD PROBABLY TO HAVE STATE RUN TV BECAUSE THAT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT HE TRIED TO DO WITH FOX NEWS DURING MEETINGS OR HE WOULD TEXT PEOPLE IN HIS OWN STAFF TO CALL FOX NEWS AND RECOMMEND THEM FOR SOMETHING THEY HAD SAID.

>> YOU ARE CALLING FROM THE FIRST TRUMP TERM MILES TAYLOR WROTE AN OPINION PIECE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ESSENTIALLY CALLING FOR CONSERVATIVES TO JOIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

DURING THE FIRST TERM, THERE WERE GUARDRAILS IN PLACE, HE HAD BEEN SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO UPHELD THE LAW WHO UPHELD THE CONSTITUTION, AND KEPT HIM FROM DOING THE MORE DARKER AND DANGEROUS THINGS, ENACTING POLICIES THAT HE CAMPAIGNED ON, NOW THE CONCERN IS THOSE GUARDRAILS WON'T BE IN PLACE AS HE IS PUTTING TOGETHER WHAT HIS TEAM WILL LOOK LIKE.

DO YOU THINK THAT MILES IS RIGHT HERE IN CALLING FOR PEOPLE TO CHANNEL THEIR INNER PATRIOTISM AND STEP FORWARD AND AT LEAST OFFER TO WORK FOR DONALD TRUMP?

I MEAN, THE SECOND PART OF THIS QUESTION IS WHETHER HE WOULD EVEN TAKE THEM ON, BUT EVEN THE FIRST PART, DO YOU THINK THOSE PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE?

>> YOU KNOW, MY PRINCIPLED INSTINCT WOULD SAY, YES, ABSOLUTELY, WE NEED GOOD PEOPLE WITH INTEGRITY TO SERVE FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

WITH THE HONEST TO GOD TRUTH IS THAT I WAS THERE WHEN THEY STARTED TO PURGE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

I WAS THERE IN 2020 WHEN THEY REALLY STARTED TO CRACK DOWN ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WHEN THEY WERE PURGING EXPERTS FROM AND LINING UP LOYALISTS.

I READ THE DRAFT OF IT FIRST HAND.

I AM AWARE OF IT.

I KNOW THEY WILL IMPLEMENT IT.

PLAN IS TO PURGE ANYONE THAT DOESN'T LINE UP WITH THEIR AGENDA AND PURGE PEOPLE FROM THEIR EXPERTISE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CONTROL IT, SO I DON'T THINK THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE OPEN MUCH TO TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES THAT MAY HAVE SERVED IN OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS BECAUSE THOSE WERE THE PEOPLE THEY WERE LOOKING FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO WEED OUT WHO WAS A LOYALIST AND WHO WASN'T.

SO I THINK IT WILL BE A VERY CHALLENGING TIME.

DO I WANT GOOD PEOPLE TO BE THE GUARDRAILS?

YES.

AND IF THEY ARE THERE, I REALLY HOPE THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO STAND THEIR GROUND.

BUT, I ALSO THINK THAT WE ARE IN A SITUATION HERE WHERE EVERY MOVE IS GOING TO BE SCRUTINIZED, AND I ALREADY LIVED THAT, AND I TELL YOU THIS BECAUSE MYSELF AND MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES WERE ALREADY VERY AWARE OF THAT, AND WE WERE ALREADY TAKING NOTE OF WHAT WE ARE SAYING IN MEETINGS, HOW WE WERE WORKING ON THINGS, BECAUSE WE WERE BEING WATCHED AND SCRUTINIZED EVERY DAY, THAT IS WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO WORK IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND IT WILL BE SO MUCH WORSE THE NEXT TIME AROUND.

>> IN THE MINUTE WE HAVE REMAINING, I AM JUST WONDERING, ALL OF THESE WARNINGS, AMERICANS WERE MADE AWARE OF BY PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, BY PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE ROOM WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT, BY REPUBLICANS, JOHN KELLY, YOU NAME IT.

AND YET, MORE THAN HALF OF THE COUNTRY CHOSE TO VOTE FOR HIM, TOO.

I KNOW THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ISSUES, WHETHER IT IS THE ECONOMY, WHETHER CONCERNS ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND SECURITY, THOSE ARE ALL VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU SWEAR ADDRESSING THOSE REALLY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS, AND THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THIS MAN AND YOU KNOW WHAT A THREAT YOU SAY HE IS FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> WELL, I AM OBVIOUSLY DISAPPOINTED IN MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO MADE THIS DECISION AND I ACTUALLY DO THINK IT IS A LACK OF INFORMATION, A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS TRULY IS, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF DEMOCRACY AND HOW PEOPLE DEFINED DEMOCRACY, I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DEFINE IT IN THE SAME WAY, SO I THINK FOR A CERTAIN POPULATION, REALLY THEY ARE LOOKING AT THESE TABLE ISSUES, PRICES OF THE GROCERY STORES AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE VOTING ON.

BUT, I AM MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE INSTABILITY, THE CHAOS, AND THE DETRIMENT TO THE SECURITY OF AMERICANS, AND WHAT THIS MEANS AND AT SOME POINT I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO LOOK AND BE LIKE, OKAY, YEAH, THE PRICE OF EGGS, I WAS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THAT, BUT NOW I HAVE ALL THESE OTHER THINGS HAPPENING IN MY COUNTRY THAT ARE FRIGHTENING.

>> OLIVIA TROY, REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WELL, ONLY MONTHS AFTER BIDEN HOSTED THE 75th ANNIVERSARY OF THE NATO ALLIANCE, THE CONVERSATION TURNS NOW TO HOW TRUMP'S FOREIGN POLICY WILL AFFECT THE UNITED STATES ' ROLE IN THE WORLD.

IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, DAVID SANGER ARGUES THAT TRUMP'S WIN ENDS A POST- WORLD WAR II ERA OF LEADERSHIP.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU, RHIANNA, AND DAVID SANGER, THANKS AND WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> IT HAS BEEN 75 YEARS SINCE AMERICA HAS LED AN WORLD ORDER THAT WAS BASED ON DEFENSIVE ALLIANCES LIKE NATO, BUT ALSO GRADUALLY DECREASING TARIFFS, MORE FREE-TRADE, MORE FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE.

DOES THIS ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP FOR THE SECOND TIME MEAN THE END OF THAT WORLD ORDER?

>> WALTER, IT MAY WELL.

YOU KNOW, IN THE DAYS AFTER PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS ELECTED FOUR YEARS AGO, HE WENT AROUND TELLING AMERICAN ALLIES , THE BRITISH, THE FRENCH, THE JAPANESE, THE SOUTH KOREANS, AMERICA IS BACK.

AND WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT WAS THAT THE FOUR YEARS OF DONALD TRUMP -- HIS FIRST TERM -- WERE AN ABERRATION.

THEY WERE THE BLIP IN THE SYSTEM.

AND HE REPRESENTED THE RETURN OF TRADITIONAL ALLIANCE BUILDING.

AFTER ALL, PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS, IN MANY WAYS, THIS SORT OF LAST WARRIOR OF THE OLD COLD WAR.

COME TO AGE IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE DURING THAT TIME, HE RAN THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, AND HE HAD, OF COURSE, BEEN VICE PRESIDENT DURING ONE OF THE MOST CRITICAL PERIODS OF THE POST-COLD WAR ERA.

NOW, WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION, THE REAL QUESTION IS, WAS BIDEN THE BLIP?

COULD PRESIDENT BIDEN BE VIEWED BY HISTORY LATER ON AS THE LAST GASP OF THAT OLD ORDER?

ONE THAT YOU NOTED MARKED BY BUILDING ALLIANCES, RELYING ON NATO, BUILDING UP ALLIANCES IN THE PACIFIC, WHICH WAS REALLY A HALLMARK OF BIDEN'S FOUR YEARS IN OFFICE, FREE-TRADE, OR AT LEAST FREER TRADE, THE CONCEPT OF 100%, 200%, 400% TARIFFS IS NOW PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP TALKED ABOUT DURING THE CAMPAIGN, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HEARD THAT COME VERY EASILY OUT OF JOE BIDEN'S LIPS.

>> WELL, JOE BIDEN SAID, "THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE."

HE KEPT SAYING THAT WHEN TALKING ABOUT IT, BUT LET'S LOOK AT AMERICAN HISTORY.

FROM THE TIME OF WASHINGTON, JEFFERSON, WARRING AGAINST ENTANGLING FOREIGN ALLIANCES, WE HAVE GENERALLY BEEN SKEPTICAL ABOUT GOING ABROAD FOR MONSTERS TO SLAY.

IS THE SORT OF A NATURAL THING THAT AMERICA HAS FELT AND THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS TRUMP GOT ELECTED?

>> THAT CYCLE OF HISTORY HAS BEEN A PART OF THE FABRIC OF THE UNITED STATES, AS YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY.

PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN MANY A BOOK ABOUT WENDY'S CYCLES COME INTO PLAY.

SAMUEL HUNTINGTON WROTE ABOUT HOW THEY HAPPEN EVERY 70 YEARS, OTHERS SAW PARTICULAR TRIGGERS IN AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR IT.

BUT, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, IT IS A RECURRING THEME.

IT WAS CERTAINLY A THEME IN THIS ELECTION, ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK A DOMINANT THEME.

I THINK WHAT GOT TRUMP ELECTED OVER KAMALA HARRIS, AS YOU WOULD EXPECT, MUCH MORE DOMESTIC ISSUES, INFLATION, THE SOLDIER WAYS -- SOCIAL WAGE ISSUES THAT TRUMP KEPT PRESSING.

YOU SAW HIM TAKE OUT A LOT OF ADS ON TV, AND YOU SAW THEM ON SOCIAL MEDIA, ABOUT TRANS ISSUES.

YOU DIDN'T SEE MANY ABOUT NATO ISSUES.

>> PRESIDENT PUTIN OF RUSSIA CONGRATULATED TRUMP.

I THINK HE SAID, HE PRAISED TRUMP'S DESIRE TO RESTORE RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA AND TO END UKRAINE -- UKRAINIAN CRISIS.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS A POSSIBILITY -- AND IS IT A GOOD THING OR BAD THING -- THAT TRUMP WILL WORK WITH PUTIN AND IN THE UKRAINIAN WAR?

>> YOU MAY WELL END THE UKRAINIAN WAR, AND I KNOW MANY PEOPLE, BOTH WITHIN TRUMP'S CIRCLE AND SOME OUTSIDE, WHO THINK THAT WITH TRUMP COMING IN, THAT WAR MAY BE OVER WITHIN A YEAR OR SO.

I AM NOT SURE I FULLY SIGN ONTO THAT, BUT IT IS NOT ONLY A QUESTION OF WHETHER THE WAR ENDS, IT IS A QUESTION OF HOW IT ENDS.

SO, THE BIDEN BY WORDS HERE WERE NOTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WITH UKRAINE.

WHICH IS TO SAY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO NEGOTIATE AROUND YOUR BACK WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN AND DECIDE THE LINES BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD THOSE WORDS FROM DONALD TRUMP.

AND WHEN HE SAYS THAT WE WILL END THE WAR IN 24 HOURS, MANY BELIEVE THAT WHAT HE IS REALLY SAYING THERE IS THAT HE WILL END THE WAR BY CALLING PUTIN, SAYING, OKAY, WHAT DO YOU DO YOU NEED?

WHAT IS THE DEAL WE CAN STRIKE?

PUTIN WILL SAY, WELL, WHY DO WE START WITH THE 20% OF UKRAINE THAT I NOW BASICALLY OCCUPIED.

AT WHICH POINT, THE THEORY GOES, HE WOULD THEN CALL ZELENSKYY AND SAY, DO I EVER HAVE A DEAL FOR YOU?

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GIVE UP 20% OF YOUR TERRITORY AND THIS WAR WILL BE OVER, AND YOU WON'T HAVE SUFFERED THESE AWFUL CASUALTIES.

>> AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ZELENSKYY SAYS "NO?"

>> THEN, HE SAYS, WELL, I'M NOT REALLY SURE WE CAN CONTINUE SUPPORTING YOU AT THE LEVEL WE HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING YOU.

>> AND WHAT IS THE DANGER OF THAT?

I MEAN, WHY IS IT BETTER TO KEEP THIS WAR GOING ON FOR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS?

>> IT MAY NOT BE BETTER, BUT THE QUESTION IS, IS THE MESSAGE THAT YOU SEND AROUND THE WORLD, THAT PUTIN CAN BE REWARDED FOR INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY, AND ENDING UP WITH SOME OF THIS TERRITORY.

OR, IF YOU VIEW IT THE WAY I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MANY OF HIS ADVOCATES VIEW IT, DO YOU SAY, LOOK, ALL WARS AND WITH A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT?

ZELENSKYY HAS BEEN INCAPABLE OF GETTING THAT NEGOTIATION GOING.

WE ARE GOING TO HELP HIM ALONG IN THAT PROCESS.

>> TELL ME WHAT YOUR VIEW ON THAT IS?

>> WELL, MY VIEW ON THAT IS THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, MY GUESS IS THAT THIS WAR WILL ONLY END WITH TERRITORY EITHER BEING GIVEN TO RUSSIA, OR KOREA LIKE, GIVEN A DISPUTE, THAT IS TO SAY THERE IS AN ARMISTICE OF SOME KIND AND AN AGREEMENT TO NEGOTIATE ON TERRITORY AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE.

NOW, IN 1953, THIS LOOKED TERRIBLE TO THE SOUTH KOREANS, BECAUSE THEY WERE SAYING THEY HAVE LOST TERRITORY OF THEIR OWN, THAT USED TO BE THERE IS.

IF YOU WOULD SAY TO THE SOUTH KOREANS BACK THEN, YOU KNOW, IN 70 YEARS PLUS, YOU WILL BE ONE OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMIES, AND YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TRAVEL, YOUR CITIZENS WILL BE ABLE TO TRAVEL THE WORLD, AND YOU WILL BE AMONG THE MOST ADMIRED MANUFACTURING COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, AND A HIGH TECH COUNTRY, TO BOOT, MAKING PRODUCTS THAT EVEN THE UNITED STATES, IN SOME CASES, IS HAVING A HARD TIME MAKING.

I THINK THE KOREANS WOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT DEAL.

THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE THAT DEAL TO THE UKRAINIANS, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE, GIVEN THE TALENT THAT WE HAVE SEEN THE UKRAINIANS HAVE, THAT THEY SHOULD THINK ABOUT REBUILDING THE COUNTRY, AND THAT THAT IS A BIGGER ISSUE THAN TERRITORY.

I AM NOT SURE ZELENSKYY THINGS THAT WAY, AND GIVING AWAY TERRITORY MIGHT BE THE END OF HIM, POLITICALLY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS AT THE END OF LONG WARS.

WHERE IT BECOMES CLEAR THAT THE UKRAINIANS IN THIS CASE ARE UNLIKELY TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND ALL THEIR TERRITORY POINT IN YOUR BOOK, "NEW COLD WARS," YOU TALK ABOUT HOW GENERAL H.R.

McMASTER, WORKING WITH TRUMP AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, SAID THAT TRUMP FELT HE COULD BREAK THROUGH WITH PUTIN ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, AND McMASTER SAID, "DON'T GO DOWN THAT PATH, THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE A GOOD IDEA."

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT CAN YOU TAKE FROM THE FIRST TERM?

AND DO THINK YOU WILL TRY TO HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP IN THE SECOND TERM?

>> OH, I'M CERTAIN HE WILL.

FIRST OF ALL, ONE OF HIS CRITIQUES OF PRESIDENT BIDEN IS THAT BIDEN AND PUTIN ONLY MET ONCE.

THEY MET IN JUNE OF 2021, THAT WAS OVER A TAX THAT EMANATED FROM RUSSIA, AND HIT THE AMERICAN OIL AND GAS PIPELINES.

IT WAS NOT LARGELY ABOUT UKRAINE.

THEY BARELY COMMUNICATED SINCE.

NEVER MET IN PERSON DURING THAT TIME.

I AM QUITE CERTAIN THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP BELIEVES THAT WHAT WORKS IN DIPLOMACY IS WHAT HE WOULD CALL GREAT MAN DIPLOMACY, THAT HE CAN TALK TO VLADIMIR PUTIN, THAT HE CAN TALK TO XI JINPING, THAT XI WOULD NOT DARE TO TAKE TAIWAN, BECAUSE HE THINKS THAT TRUMP IS BLINKING CRAZY, THAT IS WHAT HE TOLD THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, RIGHT?

SO, HE IS VERY MUCH OF THE BELIEF THAT THE PERSONAL DIPLOMACY IS THE KEY TO ALL OF THIS.

I THINK THAT CAN BE A BIT OF A TRAP BECAUSE THE CHINESE LEARNED HOW TO PLAY PRESIDENT- ELECT TRUMP BY DANGLING PRAYED TRADE DEALS.

PUTIN SEEMS TO THINK THAT A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM THAT PUT VERY FEW LIMITS ON THE RUSSIANS.

BUT, I AM SURE THAT TRUMP BELIEVES THAT HE CAN BRING ABOUT PEACE IN UKRAINE AND THE END TO THE NEW COLD WARS THROUGH THE STRENGTH OF HIS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE.

>>> ONE OF THE BIGGEST SHIFTS IN THE PAST SIX, SEVEN YEARS HAS BEEN THE GROWING ALLIANCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA.

TEACHING AT THE KENNEDY SCHOOL WITH GRAHAM ALLISON, OF COURSE, AND YOU CERTAINLY KNOW THE BISMARCK WARNINGS ABOUT LETTING YOUR TWO ADVERSARIES GET CLOSER TO EACH OTHER THAN TO YOU.

IS THIS A HUGE MISTAKE IN FOREIGN POLICY?

AND WHAT CAN TRUMP DO TO REVERSE THAT GROWING ALLIANCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THIS ALLIANCE BARELY SHOWED ITSELF DURING THE FIRST TRUMP TERM.

AND EARLY IN THE YEARS THAT BIDEN WAS IN OFFICE, HE DIDN'T EVEN IN KNOWLEDGE THAT IT WAS LIKELY TO HAVE IT.

I ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT AT A PRESS CONFERENCE ABOUT A YEAR INTO HIS PRESIDENCY, THAT HE BELIEVED THAT THE RUSSIA-CHINA PARTNERSHIP -- I WOULDN'T CALL IT A FULL ALLIANCE -- IS A REAL THING?

AND HE SAID, NO, I DON'T THINK THESE 210 -- THESE TWO COUNTRIES CAN GET TOGETHER.

BY THE TIME HE DID HIS LAST PASS CONFERENCE AFTER THE NATO SUMMIT IN THE SUMMER, HE ADMITTED HE HAD A PROGRAM TO TRY TO GET BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES, TO TRY TO STOP THIS THE WAY NIXON AND KISSINGER AS HE WROTE IN YOUR KISSINGER BIOLOGY TRY TO MAKE THE OPENING TO CHINA TO KEEP THE CHINESE AND THEN SOVIET UNION FROM COMING TOGETHER.

NOW, BIDEN WOULD NOT DESCRIBE THE ELEMENTS OF THAT STRATEGY AND MY GUESS IS THAT IT WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT COVERT AND A LOT OF IT WAS AIMED AT STOPPING THE FLOW OF TECHNOLOGY FROM CHINA, TO REBUILD THE RUSSIAN MILITARY.

BUT, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A POLICY TRYING TO GET IN THE WAY OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.

NOT TERRIBLY SUCCESSFUL.

WE NEVER HEARD, DURING THE CAMPAIGN, NOT ONCE, ANY REFERENCE TO THIS.

THE BIGGEST CHANGE IN GEOPOLITICS IN THE LAST FOUR, FIVE YEARS.

DURING THE CAMPAIGN, WE NEVER HEARD IT COME OUT OF VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS' MOUTH, WE NEVER HEARD IT COME OUT OF TRENTO PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP'S MOUTH.

SO, WE DON'T KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL TRY TO INTERFERE IN THAT RELATIONSHIP.

MY GUESS IS HE IS SO TRANSACTIONAL THAT HE BELIEVES HE CAN SORT OF NEGOTIATE SIDE DEALS WITH EACH ONE OF THEM, AND THAT THAT ALONE WILL SORT OF WEAVE IN THE LIGHTNESS.

I DON'T THINK HE IS GOING TO LOOK AT THIS IN SORT OF A GRAND STRATEGIC KISSINGER WAY.

>> AMID ALL THE TURMOIL IN THE MIDDLE EAST RIGHT NOW, WHAT EFFECT WILL TRUMP'S ELECTION HAVE, ESPECIALLY ON ISRAEL'S WAR AGAINST HEZBOILLAH, HAMAS, AND FOR THAT MATTER, AGAINST ALL IRANIAN PROXIES, AND PERHAPS EVEN IRAN?

>> SO, IF YOU ARE NETANYAHU, YOUR STRATEGY IS JUST, PAY OFF.

NETANYAHU, FROM EARLY IN THE YEAR, WAS BASICALLY WAITING OUT THE ADMINISTRATION.

SHE WOULD GET THESE LETTERS FROM SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN, OR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AUSTIN SAYING, THERE ARE LEGAL RESTRICTIONS ON THE WAY YOU CAN USE AMERICAN PROVIDED WEAPONRY, AND IF YOU DON'T ALLOW AID INTO GAZA, OR IF YOU ARE USING THOSE WEAPONS AGAINST CIVILIANS, THERE WILL BE RESTRICTIONS.

AND HE BASICALLY TOSSED THEM ASIDE AND SAID, LET'S WAIT FOR THE ELECTION, BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT THE TRUMP VIEW -- IN FACT, WE BELIEVE PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THIS TO HIM IN A CONVERSATION WITH NETANYAHU A FEW WEEKS AGO -- IS, "DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO."

AND SO, THE ERA OF RESTRICTIONS IS GOING TO BE OVER, AND THAT WAS THE MESSAGE THAT HARRIS WAS TRYING TO SEND OUT IN MICHIGAN, TO THE ARAB POPULACE, AND OTHERS, WHO WERE VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE WAY SHE DEALT WITH THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS IN GAZA, AND HER WAR WAS, AT LEAST WE ARE PUSHING NETANYAHU A BIT.

TRUMP WOULDN'T PUSH HIM AT ALL.

>> FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY PANETTA SAID THAT TRUMP WOULD GIVE NETANYAHU A BLANK CHECK.

IS THAT SORT OF TRUE?

AND IF SO, WHAT WILL HAPPEN?

>> I THINK THAT PROBABLY IS TRUE.

I DON'T THINK YOU ARE GOING TO SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP WITH ANY RESTRICTIONS.

I THINK THE PLACE WHERE THE RUBBER WILL HIT THE ROAD ON THIS, WALTER, WILL BE ON IRAN ITSELF.

YOU REMEMBER DURING THE FIRST TERM, PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKED A VERY TOUGH LINE AGAINST IRAN, BUT HE PULLED BACK ONCE OR TWICE WHEN THERE WERE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET INTO A DEEPER CONFLICT WITH THEM.

HE DID ORDER THE KILLING OF GENERAL SOUL MONEY, ONE OF THE MOST ELITE MILITARY COMMANDERS IN IRAN, BUT HE PULLED BACK FROM OPENING OF A BROADER WAR WITH THEM.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS VIEW IS, NOW.

BUT, THE IRANIANS HAVE SAID, OF COURSE, WE BELIEVE, SEND OUT, OR AT LEAST TRY TO ORDER UP TEAMS AGAINST TRUMP WHEN HE WAS CANDIDATE.

THEY DENOUNCED HIM.

THEIR CYBER OPERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES WERE ANTI-TRUMP, EVEN WHILE THE RUSSIANS WERE PRO-TRUMP.

SO, MY GUESS IS THAT TRUMP COMES INTO OFFICE WITH A MUCH HARDENED VIEW ABOUT IRAN, AND WAY MAY WELL NOT STAND THE WAY OF NETANYAHU IF HE DECIDES TO GO AFTER IRANIAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND SO FORTH.

I DON'T KNOW THAT NETANYAHU IS GOING TO DO THAT.

HE HAS HESITATED HIMSELF A FEW TIMES, BUT CERTAINLY, THAT WAS A BIG CONCERN OF THE BIDEN ADMINSTRATION JUST IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

>> ONE OF THE SUCCESSES OF TRUMP'S FIRST TERM IN THE MIDDLE EAST WAS THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS, AND THERE HAS BEEN A SENSE THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A GROWING ALLIANCE WITH SAUDI ARABIA, SOME OF THE GULF STATES, ISRAEL, ALL AS PART OF AN ALLIANCE AGAINST IRAN.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS A STRATEGIC SHIFT THAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE SECOND TRUMP TERM?

>> I DO, AND THAT WAS A LINE OF CONSISTENCY BETWEEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE BIDEN ADMINSTRATION.

JOE BIDEN DID NOT HAVE VERY NICE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT TRUMP FOREIGN POLICY, EXCEPT WHEN IT CAME TO THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS.

WHERE ON THAT ISSUE AND THE ISSUE OF SUPPORTING U.S. TECHNOLOGY AGAINST CHINA, THEY PRAISED THE WAY TRUMP WENT ABOUT IT.

AND OF COURSE, THEY WERE TRYING TO RECONSTRUCT THE SAUDI ARABIA DEAL IN THE DAYS BEFORE THE OCTOBER 7th, 2023 ATTACKS.

THEY HOPE THAT THAT MIGHT COME BACK THIS YEAR.

IT DID NOT.

I THINK IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT TRUMP MAY PUSH IN THAT DIRECTION, AND IF HE DID, I THINK THAT COULD ACTUALLY CHANGE THE DIPLOMATIC COMPLEXION OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> DAVID SINGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, AN EMOTIONAL SOUND IN PARIS.

THE ICONIC BELLS OF THE NOTRE DAME WERE RINGING OUT ONCE AGAIN, FIVE YEARS ON FROM THE FIRE THAT DEVASTATED THE CATHEDRAL.

AFTER A LENGTHY RESTORATION OF THE 861-YEAR-OLD STRUCTURE, THE BELLS BEGAN TO SOUND ONE BY ONE THIS MORNING, UNTIL ALL EIGHT TIMES IN HARMONY FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.

THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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