♪ ♪ (music) ♪ (music) >> Last June it took workers more than 17 hours to remove the John C Calhoun statue that towered more than 100 feet in the air over Merrion Square in the heart of downtown Charleston.

The statue is exempt from the South Carolina heritage act.

Before the state Supreme Court.

The divisive law keeps all monument and names not a controversial anchored in place unless legislature by a two thirds vote approves a change.

As it did the removal of the Confederate battle flag from statehouse grounds in 2015.

Doctor Brandt a USC professor and author of the South Carolina statehouse grounds a guidebook explores the context the monuments are missing.

>> Monuments are a attempt of people in the present to put the past into context that makes sense for them at the moment.

And so it's a lot of inconvenient history.

And so the moments where you see Seth Carolinians, in power, which until very recently, were white men.

The moment in which they really try to erect monuments and in fact in the statehouse grounds are moments where there trying to assert the power.

Entities the past and sometimes a really recent past in order to legitimize their decisions in the present.

And so, what we see in the statehouse grounds is often a defense or an offense a strategy by those in power to make arguments about what South Carolina has been and what it should be in the future.

And so, I love the monuments are assertions of white supremacy.

Some in reaction to the Civil War but more often, in reaction to reconstruction.

>> Welcome to Palmetto perspectives.

Tonight, in a poor conversation on how our state recognizes the past.

I am Thelisha Eaddy.

There 1700, more than 1700 public symbols of the Confederacy in the United States.

Of those, more than 800 or statues.

Last summer, as a national reckoning around racial injustice took place, we started to see renewed calls for the symbols to be removed from public spaces.

From Florida to California, over 100 were taken down or renamed.

And a state filled with monuments, memorials and buildings named after controversial historical figures, tonight, a discussion about the challenges and balancing historic recognition with what is a harmful past for so many.

And you, our viewers and listeners are invited to join us in this conversation.

You can do it by commenting on her Facebook page at South Carolina ETV or South Carolina public radio.

We have Chanda Robinson, educator and consultant with us taking comments live on air.

Joining us in the studio, we have Doctor Tamara T. Butler.

Executive director of the Avery Research Center for African American History and Culture at the College of Charleston and board member of the international African-American Antjuan Seawright, founder and CEO of Blueprint Strategies.

And a longtime political consultant.

Also joining us, Doctor Ehren Foley with USC Press.

Rounding out the panel for this evening, Tiffany S. James president of the National Action Network of Columbia.

Thank you all very much for joining us this evening for this conversation.

Doctor Ehren Foley like to start with you.

In the opening report we heard it explained that the monuments we see in the statehouse grounds can be seen as a strategy by those in power to make arguments about what South Carolina has been and what it that information, if I go prison the statehouse grounds say what story am I being told?

What am I seeing and hearing?

>> I think is probably not one-story but many.

Although you know, many of those monuments as the Dr. pointed out to tell a story about white supremacy.

Certainly, the power structure as it existed when the monuments were put up.

I think monuments as she kind of indicated there, or a snapshot of a moment in time they're not capturing a history in a particularly new -- nuanced way but a statement about the identity and desires of the groups that put them up.

For the most part, through most of our state history, the groups that have the power and access and ability to erect monuments have been you know, not people of color.

We have really the African-American monument there, it is the one.

It is the newest one but it is kind of the one that is there to stand in and tell all of the history where is the rest of the monuments tell a different story.

>> What shall we take into consideration when we start to analyze statues and monuments and memorials?

What pieces of information should we consider what we want to find out what they mean and what they stand for?

>> I think the first thing you have to do is approach them critically.

You cannot take them at face desire I think of people that put up monuments they want them to stand powerfully and seems self-evident and to steam as if they stand for all time.

But the don't so you have to critically k questions, who put the spare, when, why, and go back to the sources.

It is a great thing about you know, the book that is just outcome of the statehouse grounds guidebook.

It is a quick resource.

You don't have to go back into the archives, you can get the guidebook and Lydia Brandt really guided you through.

Unless the people that put up the monuments speak for themselves.

Because they will tell you often times, what they were thinking and doing and what they intended.

>> I'm glad you said that because I was going to say the debate is not a new one.

But those in support of these monuments and symbols, the arguer reading too much into it.

They're not about hate or white supremacy but about history and heritage.

What exists that says it is not the case?

What are some examples that exist this is just not true?

>> A great place to start is the speeches that were given when the monuments were put up.

I mean, the people that put them there, they wanted to tell you know the gathering crowd, sort of what they were doing.

And they're pretty explicit about it often times so that's a great place to start.

Newspapers, now in our current age, the benefit of having so much digitized, you can go back and just for our city the state newspaper to the public library.

You can search, you can word search these you can search by date and you can find all sorts of information about what is being written at the time.

And I think is really important to get that contemporary look.

Because it does, I think, contextualize appropriately and probably put the lie most often, to that strictly heritage sort of argument.

>> I want to ask each of you, within your areas, we have education, politics, history, literature, artists and activism.

We have a lot of industries represented here within the realms of your space, does the debate exist there?

We see it in public especially during state holidays and events.

We get the opportunity to see these opposing sides.

What about within the spaces in which you work and serve?

Doctor Tamara T. Butler, we will start with you.

>> I think one of the things that we see it talkingabout what gets to be saved and what doesn't.

We think specifically, around for example, at the Avery research Center we are archive, library and museum.

There's a question bout what to put at the forefront, what do we get to preserve?

The fact the Avery exists is because there really isfor Black archives.

It said what gets to be saved?

Monuments are put up to tell a certain story and history.

Black stories in history get buried in special collections.

Sometimes they are highlighted, they may only highlight violence.

And so I think it's really important, one of the things that we see is really the concept of whose history gets to be saved?

And so in terms of archive work, we are really adamant about we would love for everyday peoples stories to be preserved.

The question is, are we all got to celebrating heroes?

And heroines?

Are we really trying to bring in all voices and all stories?

It is one of the things of the archive.

>> Got you, Antjuan?

>> And Mylan of the work, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you dissected, the American experiment, has always been shaped by big events pushing us to either make progress or roll the clock So when there is a shooting, when there's a big incident, nine black parishioners being killed in a church in Charleston South Carolina by a certified white supremacist, by the name of Dylann Roof.

It brings up these discussions and we start to evaluate not just monuments, and but also conversations and leaders and who we honor and why we honor them at the time.

Of course it exists.

But also a couple of things.

Number one, I'm a big fan of history.

In fact George Santiago says if we do not learn from history, we are bound to repeat history so I appreciate history in its rightful place.

I also say that symbols matter.

Confederate flag or the lot.

Confederate battle flag debate in South Carolina for so long.

The third thing Scripture teaches me that to everything, there is a season, these people that have been honored by whoever decided to honor them, they may have had their rightful place in time to be honored.

However, we always keep evolving in this country.

And so, while they may have their rightful place, we can honor them by putting them in a museum, putting them someplace where they can be honored but not public statues, because there are parts of history that we should not be part of in this country because when you come from communities that look like mine, as a 36 old grandson of sharecroppers, I see some of these symbols that are in public grounds that are being paid for to be maintained with public dollars, it is depressing.

Want to expand the history?

Why not highlight the things that we can all be proud of?

Because that is how we continue to change the conversation and move our country forward.

>> Dr. Foley within your work how you see this?

>> I think there were a couple of different hats in the spirit come from background as public historian, and preservationist.

There is that impulse I think, sort of amongst that group, to preserve, it is in the name, right?

I think particularly sort of early on may be, the past decade, there was some tension of we need to preserve these monuments we need to tell stories and add context, that is the way forward.

I think that has evolved more and more over probably even particularly the past five years to the point where there's a lot more willingness to remove monuments and talk about the proper time and place and way of doing so.

That is one perspective I bring.

And now I'm working in book publishing so again, like Antjuan number interested in telling the stories and there's a lot of different way to do that.

>> Thank you, Tiffany?

>> Yes, I were several different hats as well.

As a political strategist and social justice activist and also an artist.

It definitely lives in all three of those spaces.

I would say like Antjuan, every time a George Floyd incident happened, the nine prisoners that lost their lives, while they were praising and worshiping their God.

You know, whenever we hear about these stories, you are reminded of the statues that surround that and it is being honored and I will say that I love history as well.

And I used to be a social studies teacher.

But history belongs in the museums.

I was at the Confederate relic Museum about two weeks ago.

And it was a great history lesson and that is exactly where a lot of these symbols and monuments should be.

somebody, it has to be someone who represents all people and not just you know, people from the past or a certain you know, So the Confederate statues are to commemorate and honor and so, it is definitely being honored and all of those spaces.

And it needs to be put in history in the museum.

As an artist, it exists but as artists, we like to re-create and so, we like to re-create stories and make it our own.

We just had a rally at the Statehouse grounds on the anniversary of the mother manual nine on June 17.

And it was to confront and confiscate the Confederacy state of mind.

So, what we are doing is basically reimagining what it would be like if these symbols did not exist you know, physically and also mentally, right?

How can we re-create spaces of joy for people of color?

We kind of just tell her own story with the statues and symbols that surround us.

>> Antjuan?

>> We have a tendency in this country, especially in our state, to sweep so many things under the rug.

And as a result, our state now communities we find ourselves having lumps in the carpet and generations of people trip over those because we want to sweep things under the rug.

The good news about this conversation we are having is the tectonic plates have shifted.

The last two poles I saw, the Quinnipiac and "Washington Post" he said them across and Republicans black, white, majority of Americans over 50 percent agree that the statues should be removed.

The unfortunate thing about a place like South Carolina where we live and many southern states, we honor people when they die.

And usually when they die for something horrific in particular, people look like me, it took the picture being hung at the Statehouse only because he was killed the way he was with eight other people in a place in Charleston, there are so many beautiful bright spots of South Carolina history where we could honor so many pioneers and so many African-Americans, but we don't have those discussions and I think that is where majority of the problem lies when it comes to the statues and even discussions about people who should be honored in particular, the state.

>> Ought to shift a little bit.

In 2000 when the Confederate battle flag was removed from the top of the Statehouse ground, the dome of the Statehouse, we saw the South Carolina heritage act emerge which protects these symbols.

This past May the Supreme Court heard arguments that the statute, the law is not constitutional and we were waiting to hear the next steps.

If this law is being unconstitutional, what changes do you think, if any, will we see here in the Palmetto State?

I will start here or anyone can jump in.

>> It if is deemed unconstitutional I believe we will finally get these statues and symbols of hate taken down.

-- J Marion Sims and Tillman, USC and Clemson they were trying to change names of different buildings.

We will be able to see name changes to honor people who are alive, to honor people who are doing great things for the state in this day and age.

I think we will see a lot of positive change.

I also think that we will have some push back.

And of course, with all changes will be pushed back.

I think that you know, overall it is going to be a wonderful change.

>> I think one of the things that is the problem I think with another heritage act and others like it, that helped to inspire across you know much of the South and other parts of the nation, it preempts democracy.

It preempts the ability for local communities to make decisions about what stories they're going to tell in their communities about themselves.

I mean, that doesn't mean that it will always turn out the way the people on the stage would want but it would provide the opportunity for democracy, small D democracy to have a place for people to meet in the public square to meet in their town councils and really talk about hash out what do we want to present to the public when they come to Greenwood South Carolina?

When they come to Columbia South Carolina.

Not what does the state legislature in Columbia want us want to say about ourselves?

>> Antjuan, any changes?

>> I will say this about the heritage act.

Yes, the Supreme Court will have some sort of say in the process but keep in mind, you will use things like the heritage act, monuments, road names and statues are sometimes a weapon of political mass destruction.

And a weapon of political mass distraction.

And unfortunately, we live in an environment in a 24 hour news cycle where we have folks that use these kind of issues as right wing tone down racial divisive rhetoric.

And that sometimes, has influence on political leaders who eventually make decisions even after the courts may make a decision.

And so while I remain cautiously optimistic, while I breathe hope as the South Carolina model would have us say or repeat, I also am realistic.

I am realistic because it literally took respectfully, everyone on this panel, and people being killed in a church in Charleston by a white supremacist in order for the Confederate battle flag to be removed from the grounds of our capitol.

We cannot afford as a country, society and collective South Carolina community, for another tragedy to happen in order for us to push towards progress in our state.

>> Dr. Butler?

>> My biggest concern is thinking about what happens in the absence.

For me, I'm always interested in so, we take Marion Sims name off a building.

I want to know why you put it on there in the first place.

That is the other part of the change I want to see.

I know right now we are sitting, teetering on the edge of this, should we have critical race theory in classrooms?

And I think the real question is, if we do not then we cannot unpack why the Confederate statues need to come down and what happened in Richmond with some of the statues and how the kind of I mean, that was beautiful with people reclaimed the space.

And so I want us to think about that as well as we talk about change, thinking about how do you reclaim the space?

Now that John C Calhoun is off of his pedestal, what do we do with that?

Do we knocked on the rest of the pedestal?

Do we build on top of it?

For me, I think about change in terms of how to use it to teach?

It does not mean that Marion Sims gets buried further down into the books.

But instead it's like why did this University, where did this college, why did this community decide it was important to name this building after this person and then, replace it with whoever's name.

And I think that is the part that I want to see, more of the dialogue around that.

I also think if I'm not mistaken, I'm open to correction.

I understand is also another part of the heritage act that I think people overlook is that it protects Confederacy and civil rights monuments.

And so, there is also this interesting balance where I think it can open the door for now, the destruction of other things, of other monuments.

But like I said I would be open to -- >> That's a great point.

Just sort of reimagining what monumental landscape looks like.

In our own time.

I think it's a great point that you make about the, the way in Richmond on MonumentAvenue, but was put up during the protest last spring, those were I think, the greatest counter monuments I've seen.

Because one of the things that's always a problem in thinking about contextualizing or putting up a small sign to tell the story, is always dwarfed he monument.

But those sort of they say recapture the space, reclaim the space, transform the meaning and I'd really love to see you know, us as a community and a state, sort of think about what will our monumental landscape look like moving forward?

I think thinking about art, the artists here have done beautiful murals that tell the story of the city and civil rights here.

There's all sorts of opportunities that we have and I think that is a great way to think about it.

Not just a story of destruction pulling down monuments but how do we tell our story.

>> Absolutely.

>> A really great point, our conversation online I think will be a really good time to bring those in.

Again, thank you for those participating in today's conversation on our Facebook page.

Chanda, what are some of the conversations we have online?

>> One of the comments is, since symbols matter, that was earlier to your statement.

Are there ways that we might re-image the monument?

Or should they be to honor people or ideals?

>> I think it falls into all of us participating at the ballot box.

Whenever Supreme Court makes whatever decision they going to make, lawmakers will essentially have some say so.

Whether to state, local or what history looks like in the state, you will use that perhaps to fuel and shop at the ballot box and have influence on those that make the decisions.

Same thing with college and university boards.

By the way who are appointed by elected officials at the Statehouse, who if the Supreme Court decides to unpackaged a gift, they will then have flexibility to make whatever decisions they want to.

We we get jammed up in a place like South Carolina and other places around the country, we are notin the business of expanding history.

We are in the business of looking back at history.

Why not expand history?

Why not open up and talk about the things that matter?

Forget about all the dark stains on the windows of history in the state.

Forget about Calhoun and so many others.

One talk about leaders that are doing things that have continuously move the ball forward, to get South Carolina, not about what she was or she is, but what we know she can be.

>> I think we talk about expanding history too, I think that does include statues and includes symbols and people as well.

And also, like what you're saying about the artist.

It is about reimagining, right?

Reimagining the symbols, reimagining what you know, what statement or what, what symbol we would like.

So John Sims, he was an artist that was detained here and racially profiled.

He re-created a symbol and it was the -- the recreation of that flag is the Confederate flag but in pan- African colors and basically it is to symbolize the recreation of how we can make our world what we want to see.

So yes, I think that would be the question that addresses the question as far as it being symbols or a person being honored.

>> Felicia, with such a rich history in the state.

Before Rosa Parks there was a lady by the name of Sarah Mae Fleming who actually set up the case for the Rosa Parks Montgomery case.

If it wasn't for the first African-American mayor, see Benjamin in Columbia South Carolina, perhaps she would not have had her rightful place.

There are so many powerful stories that have been there to help the nation grow right here in South Carolina.

But we will not even honor some of our own.

Dimension symbols matter, I things where we have to shift the conversation and shift our focus.

>> You know, the very first episode of this program last year, following the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd, we talked about the broad coalition of people of different walks of life.

Going to the streets, we talked about the support that people of color, African Americans and people of color were seen because of that horrendous video and the horrible crime.

And I'm hearing a little bit of that now.

It seems like at this particular point of the conversation, we are seeing a larger coalition of support.

For the removal or some sort of changing when it comes to these monuments.

Are you optimistic that from this point that we are at now, this awakening, this more educated point that we are at now, that we will see real change, that will encompass what you all are bringing to the table talking about.

>> I think so!

I really loved Tiffany 's point about reimagining of art, reimagining of symbols and the think it will.

I think as we become more environmentally justice and environmentally just and savvy and conscious, I think it also changes what we use.

Too often we want things, we want permanence and in this particular moment, if we want to talk about what South Carolina has been and will be and all of that, -- introduced me to a word and a mere list introduced me to a concept of -- if we want to think about how to honor people, it's really about pulling back all of these different layers in a think changes need to be and what we create.

We really need a bronze statue?

Do we really need a concrete image?

No!

Because our ideas and visions and work is about chipping away at, it is about slowly coming thinking that we may want to rethink how we think about how we will honor people.

Does it have to be a mural that we keep ceiling?

Or is okay if it peels away you can actually start to unpack history.

I think us having a different mindset about what it means to honor because while we have Rosa Parks and we have Alice -- and others, all these other people behind them at all of these folks in front of them.

And the issue of permanency is real difficult.

I don't want to stay there.

I think that is why I really believe in talking with artists and creative and I think that we can get to a more responsible way of honoring and celebrating that also doesn't destroy the environment.

>> I think is a beautiful way of putting it too and framing it in this mode of environmental justice which is not the way I thought of it before.

But I think this kind of gets to one of the points we are talking about.

When we are debating monuments that were put up in 1870 or 1913, we are still beholden to people long dead.

And they continued to have dominion over the landscape.

You know, so what kind of hubris do we have to say that we will do the same?

We'll sort of take something down but then we will put in its place something that lasts for all time.

>> That is why think the place making is very important.

Place making because you can create something that honors life as we know it, life on earth.

Like everyday life, right?

Like on Main Street, we have the drums, the art installation with the drums where people from all walks of life can come and you know, makes the music.

There is so many different things that you can do with place making.

Where you can honor human life today instead of just putting up a bronze statue or you know, painting a mural that stays if ever I think it is another way that we can look at honoring life.

>> A statue doesn't have to honor a person.

>> It doesn't.

>> It could honor something outside of a person and so many big events have shaped the American experiment, that helped shape the South Carolina experience and I think, I think you're right!

We do not come we should not repeat the sins of previous generations.

Whether we agree that people should be replaced or not but we can evolve and get better.

But also want us to have a point of clarity and Avenue soberness because we are removing statues, and take industrial names and so forth it doesn't remove that America's first sin of racism in the country sometimes we think because the statute comes down, because a symbol comes down it means the problem goes away.

It does not.

The reason I'm optimistic.

Reason I'm hopeful because I think generations are starting to change.

This is not my sharecropper grandparents America anymore.

It started to not be the America my parents once knew.

It is our American now.

Our generation seems to care about the experiences of our peers more so than the history of our parents.

And I think that can set the tone.

People with differences, different life experience will come to the table, realize we have more in common then we do not I think that is how we push towards the change that we can all be proud of.

>> Pushing toward progress.

Les turned to social media because we have really good comment in this part of the conversation.

>> As the state in the country evolves, shouldn't monuments be just that?

Monumental.

Monumental to all South Carolinians rather than a particular -- I want to jump in and say as an educator, how are we going to teach and continue to teach history, how we are teaching it now and continue to teach history, the terminology where we came from and how we get to now.

>> Yeah.

I mean I want to jump in here and because that actually is my background, education.

And so one of the things I think is important is getting us to think a little about teaching our students isms.

we want to start with racism but America's actual first -- it's the only reason we are here.

The whole reason Christopher Columbus sailed across the ocean, imperialism.

That is, it's also one of the missteps but those things go hand-in-hand.

Racism, sexism, discrimination, imperialism, all of those, colonialism, all of those are linked.

We want to teach students about our history, it is also getting them to develop a similar shared language.

And so it is usually where we missed the mark.

We want to teach history is linear.

And we only follow one line, the issue is we know history is not, there are too many people involved for to go in one direction.

Christina Sharp said the past is not yet the past always represent the present, and I think that's where we are in this moment where we need to understand what the past is and what those paths are.

Teaching with an s. too often when we talk about education it is set curriculum that goes in a linear fashion that stops at these interesting time points that doesn't look at what our peers were doing in another area of the world.

Like all of us things are interlocked.

America cannot teach history by itself.

It's never in a vacuum.

Right?

As part of the imperial project.

And I think that is part of it.

The whole project, the manifest destiny slavery, genocide, all of that is part of how America built itself and so, until we actually talk about isms in a cluster we will only be able to talk in one dimension but this generation I think in particular, has so much language and it is a matter of us making sure that the schools catch up to language our students are learning because people are teaching on social media.

And so for us it is catching up in making that kind of, being able to weed out what are the facts from what is someone's opinion, really get critical thinking so for me it is just all about plural.

I'm a big fan of teaching and plural.

And multiple directions.

>> All of the isms, isolationism is the worst of all.

And some don't have conversations -- they isolate things.

The history that Antjuan Seawright knew, is different than my sister who will have her -- total different!

History is changed at a pace it did not change before believe it or not.

And with the idea of social media and a 24 hour news cycle, the world has to keep up in the education system has to Keep up.

What do identifies important?

When I was in elementary school and high school and middle school we didn't have to have conversations about this we knew it was coming but it did not happen.

We did not have conversations even about Browning in South Carolina.

In five or 10 years from now it will be a reality that we will have to teach of what it look like, how does it compare to previous times in our state and nations history.

And that's why the word evolve is so important to me.

We have to keep again, pushing toward progress so how we evolve will actually determine what the future of not just our country, but our state and communities look like.

Particularly communities that are been left out of the historical conversation for a very long time.

>> We have another comment?

>> The viewer want to go back to the idea of monuments.

More.

What are concepts and people we should potentially consider for monuments?

>> I think there's a couple of things here.

It brings to mind.

But they are just recently, a friend of mine a historian, Tyler Perry, wrote a great op-ed in the "Washington Post" a couple of days ago.

About the diversity of South Carolina 's history and how many people we have here and the stories really, the stories we have to tell just thinking about one era of reconstruction, we have to get Robert smalls and is a great story and it is dynamic and interesting and there is tension but there are so many more people there.

There is our H cane, there is just -- Joseph -- they tell the stories, tell the stories of.

[Name?]

In Columbia, public educator who 's school set by the fitness center on the USC campus.

Richard Greener now has a monument on the USC campus.

But there are many of them out there to tell.

>> Let's go back to Facebook.

What about healthy healing?

>> I think I'll go back to the comment that you made a little while ago.

We removed for monuments and what does the space look like?

I think it's a big part of healing this difficult past for so many.

>> I like what Tiffany said earlier about art and joy and making space for joy.

And I believe that is the biggest thing about monuments.

I think like I said I loved what happened at Richmond because I specifically remember the two young black women ballerinas standing there and performed they took these photos in front of it, and I think that's also the part.

I think we think about people we are talking for example plantations, and students at Tulane, the students that took photos at one of the enslaved peoples ancestors dwelling.

And so for us, monuments should have the same kind of reckoning with, where people can go and actually heal!

Right?

Can we have conversations?

Can I dance, paint, meditate, smudge?

What does it take?

Can we useis for that?

And not so much about, I think it opens up dialogue conversation artists have installations and dialogue as well.

And I think I would love, I don't need a monument for healing but I think so much of what we focus on is the violence and we understand there is so much violence.

We also have to recognize that people are resilient and survived and where is the celebration for that?

Right?

Where are the monuments and memorials and the things to remember and commemorate those moments.

I would love to see those.

(laughing).

>> You know that classic no pain no gain?

We all know that classic from our parents.

And it should be told it takes pain in order for us to gain something.

In order for something to give birth, I'm not a woman but I read a lot of books and of her conversations that you have to push and it takes pressure and it takes pain to give birth to something.

The push that you start to see from my generation, and the pain that it caused the parents and grandparents generation, I think will give birth to something really new and special that we all can be part of.

Problem is, we have the tendency to ignore, turned on the volume on the reality that these things exist.

We want to conduct ourselves or convince ourselves of these things did not happen.

And only talk about the fact that they did happen, we say that it really doesn't matter because we quickly move forward.

Let's admit we had a problem, let's deal with the problem and then let's fix the problem so that generations of people do not repeat the sins of previous generations.

>> I think we talk about just healing, we have to talk about honoring life.

We have to honor life to heal.

And when we look at our legislators, who are keeping the heritage act intact, they are honoring dead people who housed the spirit of the Confederacy.

For most of them do, right?

Instead of honoring you know, people who were here today, who housed the human spirit.

So, I think we have to look at what can we do like I was saying earlier, to create spaces where it is not just a monument, but spaces for people to get together from all different backgrounds.

I think some rich in diversity.

All different backrest to come together in a space where we can create joy and we can honor our lives as it is now.

Yes.annot say something?

>> It is so funny.

We are only one of the countries in the world the honor people we lost.

Because the Confederacy lost!

Yet, we are honoring these people with statues and so forth.

As if they were successful and victorious in their works.

To me, that is backwards.

And in a real way.

Unfortunately, a lot of the conversations we talk about pain and moving forward, the only way it will happen is they happen outside of the walls of the state capital.

In homes, churches dinner tables, places where we have intimate family discussions and we acknowledge the fact of how Because if a child in 2021 here is the same rhetoric and language of generations from 2 to 3 generations before, they are going to dictate were really repeat the same behavior and language and so we never move the ball forward.

And we will keep having these conversations years and years and generations and generations later.

>> We use the word repeat and evolve talking about history.

Going back again to the beginning piece with Doctor Brandt talking about how monuments can be a strategy for particular message.o put a How do we not repeat ourselves?

And I ask that because the past few weeks we have seen increased conversations about these monuments and some movements.

Most recently, yesterday, with the internal commission at University of South Carolina thing the wellness center should be renamed along with 10 other buildings on campus back in June the US House of Representatives voted to remove Confederate monuments from public spaces in the capitol and then the 4th of July, Charlottesville Virginia, two monuments came down there.

But if our history changes and if the people are in power change it and it fluctuates, is there something that can be done where we have like a base standard?

So that as time progresses and the different groups of people are in power, what you just said, we don't stay where we are and move backwards.

>> Something always that would be interesting, I'm not sure how practical it is, I'm sure that Antjuan will tally from a political standpoint.

But to think about how long are we really willing to you know, have a monument stand?

Maybe there should be a 25 year lease on the land.

Then there is a referendum, you come together sort of and say are we willing to continue to tell this story?

And maybe there's an extension of that and it goes on but you have a continual kind of reflection and ability to say, let's really think about what we are doing here, be intentional about the monumental landscape we are creating for ourselves.

>> Right, and kind of like a retiree statue and put in a museum.

>> I think that is smart.

The one thing it would teach us is patience.

We honor people for eating hot dogs!

We hundred people for things that really my opinion, you know, can be honored in different way but we honor them patient.

way.

Let's let time plat when it comes to honoring and recognizing people for their achievements.

Because while one generation may be highlighted, another generation, it is totally different.

And I think we have to learn patience when it comes to honoring people and honoring events that happen.

But if you want to -- I agree with you so (laughing) can I say one thing?

>> Yes.

>> Listening to the ecosystem.

I mentioned earlier that majority of Americans agree it is time to remove Confederate statues.

We have a group of leaders all across the country who have not kept up with the times, they are so focused on the noise they have not heard the lyrics of the people who are trying to tell them what needs to happen in order for our country to I think we have to start listening to what is going on in the ecosystem and if we do that, we will know is time to transition leaders who are being honored to honor a new generation of leaders.

>> And frankly, that is how history works.

Certainly the discipline is how it works you get that term revision sometimes thrown around.

But I think for a historian it's good for business in one sense.

You always had to be rewriting history.

But history is always written through the lens of the present.

You're trying to understand the past on his own terms but always bringing something of yourself to that study and sort of how we understand the past does evolve.

So we have to be willing to think about that not only in the books that are published and writing but also monuments that we are erecting and maintaining.

>> Will take one more social media question.

The question is, how do we begin to heal?

What ways can we start the process?

That's a good one.

It is so good has everyone thinking.

(laughing).

>> It is profound.

I sit here and think about the monuments and memorial and the teaching process and where do we cut it off?

We thought about standards, things prescribed, we always have these committees.

When we pull them together, where do we begin and who do we leave out into to be included in history?

And how do we teach?

Because people do need to know because the old show with Jay Leno walking the street he's asking a basic historical fact and people get it totally wrong!

Who won the Civil War.

even answer who won.

is that?

So we still have to teach it.

But then looking at it, and saying, how long?

One of the things is historical thinking skills, periodization is one, that was a period of time that defined that period of time.

How do we define this period of time?

New monuments to describe this period of time so when the next arrived, how do they look at us?

>> I think one of the things with healing that we sometimes miss is just the idea of listening.

As someone who is now in charge of a museum, we can't just drop off all of the torn down monuments at museums.

>> You think?

>> Nobody wants those!

(laughing) But what it does, it opens up a conversation of, what can I do?

I think that is the other part.

What can I possibly do as an individual, what influence, institutionally, as a collective.

And really thinking about like what is the responsibility of schools in the healing process?

Even though we know schools have their own long history.

Right?

But what is everyone's responsibility?

What can you do?

How do we create spaces for artists, curators, legislators, community members, how do we get all this people educators, all at the table to start to say, what do we want to do here?

How do we want to handle this?

we get reinforcement?ch?

Because I think that's the other part about the work is that if we are doing for example, with teachers we gave all this critical theory, right?

And we so you can go out there and teach -- and then they get here in the classroom and says the standards say I must do this.

But it didn't reinforce the thing that we were prepared and doing.

I think it's the same thing.

If the museums are doing and legislators are doing it and all using the same language, and working towards like we will not bury the history but want to actually, we want to transcend it.

Right?

We want to use it to go to a different level.

Then we have to figure out how can we listen to each other.

And I think understanding what peoples limits are.

That is my thing I think the healing process starts with a lot of listening and listening across the board and across the aisle.

Sometimes you know, I think that's the most important part, sitting down and figuring out how to listen and figuring out what can you actually do?

>> I was going to say, I think that healing is a journey.

I think we already started it so is not where we can begin but how do we continue it, right?

We're doing that with conversations.

We are doing that right now, we are healing right now having this conversation.

We are healing with you know having the debates, healing with you know, challenging the heritage act.

We are healing just, we are already doing that.

I think it is just you know about searching yourself.

Because you know, in yoga they say you know, you have to fix yourself before you go out and fix the world so search yourself, educate yourself too because with all of the isms someone marginally does want to explain why this is offensive to me.

So educate yourself and then, get together with a group of people and create change, create change, through art, create change to advocating.

Create change on the best way you know how.

I would say the healing process has already began.

>> Do you think it is possible to have a two way street with healing?

Or some symbiotic relationship, right?

We talking about the healing of those whose history is not readily told her accurately told in history books and through these monuments.

But what about the other side?

When you have conversations with those that support these monuments, you can feel the strength for lack of a better term and what they lost, the family and people they lost and we talk about how we will reimagine, not just South Carolina but the nation.

They need healing too.

What are some, as we start to wrap up the show a little bit, what are some examples of how both sides can heal so we can have really effective change and truly walk in harmony on the other side?

>> I think it starts with self evaluation.

my vacation Bible teacher says if it is to be it was up to me.

We had to do a lot of self evaluating in this country and after we leave that it is how do we control -- not everything is controlled so how do we prioritize parties?

How do we focus on the focus?

And if we do that we have clarity around the idea that my experience may be similar to yours.

But there's also differences.

Same thing with everyone else on this panel.

But we have to talk about let me tell a different way we have to learn to yell about the places we agree and get to a place where we whisper and the places we disagree.

We get so caught up in yelling to the places we disagree and whispering to the places we agree that we cannot heal and move forward and we cannot make change as we need to in this country.

I learn better when I saw myself with people who have zero life experiences in common with what I do.

I think if we all took that approach and learn to speak up and speak up about where we agree, but also have real conversations about where we disagree, some of these issues that we have discussions about we want to beat each other up about, we quickly realize, therefore more things that we can work on together than the things that we can yell and fight about and disagree about.

>> I think there's something else here too not quite sure exactly how, I will simplify a little bit.

We are talking a lot about Confederate monuments maybe not just about that but the Confederacy lasted four years.

1861 until 1865.

You know, to invest everything in your self and identity in a moment in time.

Maybe not the best moment in time, a failed rebellion, against the United States to maintain the rebellion.

Maybe let's not make that who we are.

And I say we, I mean White South Carolinians.

There might be something that we look at that is not this moment so let's celebrate the best of us maybe not the worst of us.

>> And we are still ending up at reconstruction the period after 1865 until now.

The reconstruction.

>> We will always be under construction.

The question is, what does the building process look like?

And going back to your original point you know I'm a fan of 80s and 70s music.

Robert Bates said it takes two to make the things go right.

We have to hear the other side and we have to make sure that the other side hears us.

And we put those two things together it is from that conversation or from the talks, what really would make all of us proud, not just some of us.

Because we focus on some but we forget about all.

>> Good words to leave it at and we have to leave it right there.

So, one of the most controversial symbols of the past will always be the Confederate battle flag and next Thursday, July 22, part one of a two hour film on the flag in its removal from the statehouse grounds, you'll get a chance to see it, here's a quick look now.

>> Symbols mean a great deal.

And flags, because they blow in the wind, they mean something.

>> They can mean one thing when they originally designed.

But as they get used over time, that meaning can change and shift.

>> It is in the meeting.

>> -- >> That is downing of a flag premiering next Thursday, July 22 and we definitely hope that you tune in for it.

Thank you very much for being here and sharing your perspectives and starting this very important conversation.

For all of us at South Carolina ETV and South Carolina public radio, I am Thelisha Eaddy.

Good night.♪