>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO..

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP .

>> IN PLACES LIKE SUDAN, AND PLACES LIKE SYRIA, WE ARE UNABLE TO DELIVER SERVICES.

WE ARE HAVING TO CLOSE SERVICES.

>> AS A LEGAL BATTLE OVER GETTING USAID RAMPS UP, WE LOOK AT THE HUMAN COST, AND THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE BEARING THE BRUNT.

THE HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, DAVID MILLER BRAND, JOINTLY.

>> I'VE SPENT THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF WATCHING EVIDENCE OF THE WORST THINGS HUMANS CAN DO TO ONE ANOTHER.

>> ONE DAY EVERYONE WILL HAVE BEEN AGAINST THIS.

THE ACCLAIMED NEW BOOK, A DAMNING INDICTMENT OF WESTERN COMPLACENCY AMID THE BLOODSHED OF OUR MOTHER MORSE.

THE AUTHOR JOINTLY.

>> WE ARE CERTAINLY HOPEFUL THAT THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION WILL HOPEFULLY RECOGNIZE THAT AMERICANS ACROSS THE BOARD SUPPORT PUBLIC LANDS.

THEY SUPPORT THE OUTDOORS.

>> WHAT CAN BE DONE TO SAVE AMERICA'S ICONIC GREEN SPACES AS FIRES HIT PUBLIC WORKERS?

WALTER ISAACSON ASKS THE PRESIDENT FOR THE TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND.

>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS .

CANDACE KING WEIR .

SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM .

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST .

MARK J. BLECHNER .

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION .

SETON J. MELVIN .

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND .

CHARLES ROSENBLUM .

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN .

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG .

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS .

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FROM HIV, TO MALNUTRITION, TO PANDEMIC PREVENTION, AFGHANISTAN TO ETHIOPIA TO SERBIA, THE DAMAGE FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S GUTTING OF USAID HAZARDS WITH AN EXTENSIVE.

THIS WEEK THE LEGAL BATTLE GOT UNDERWAY.

A FEDERAL JUDGE RULED AGAINST THE WORLD'S RICHEST MEN, ELON MUSK, AND HIS DOGE, SAYING THE UNILATERAL MANNER IN WHICH THEY FLASHED INTO THE WORLD'S POOREST IS LIKELY TO HAVE VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION.

ON TODAY'S PROGRAM, A REMINDER THAT THERE ARE REAL HUMAN LIVES IN THE BALANCE, THE DUSK INSISTS THAT NO ONE HAS DIED IN THE CUTS.

THE REALITY ON THE GROUND IS ALREADY PENDING A DIFFERENT PICTURE.

HEALTH WORKERS IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD SAY PEOPLE, ADULTS, AND CHILDREN ARE ALREADY DYING FROM THE CUT OFF, AND A NEW STUDY BY THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT SAID MILLIONS MORE COULD DIE WITHIN A YEAR.

DAVID MILIBAND IS HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, AND HE USED TO BE THE BRITISH FOREIGN MINISTER.

I STARTED BY ASKING HIM ABOUT THE MASSIVE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE UNLEASHED ON GAZA AGAIN .

DAVID MILIBAND, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>> WE ARE TALKING AT THE END OF THE WEEK IN WHICH THE CEASE- FIRE IN GAZA HAS BEEN COMPLETELY SHATTERED, AND ISRAEL IS TALKING MORE ABOUT RETURNING THE WAR, AND LESS THE HOSTAGES ARE RELEASED.

BUT ON THE HUMANITARIAN FRONT, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ARE REPORTED KILLED, AND INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

WHAT ARE YOUR PEOPLE SITTING ON THE GROUND?

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?

>> OBVIOUSLY AN ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE SITUATION IN GAZA, OVER THE LAST TWO MONTHS.

IT HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED, BECAUSE DURING THE CEASE-FIRE, AID HAS FLOWED.

AID WORKERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MOVE MUCH MORE EASILY AROUND GAZA.

AND THERE IS BEEN A SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT, BOTH IN THE HUMANITARIAN HELP THAT'S GOING IN, AND IN THE STATE OF THE MARKETS AND PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO BUY THINGS.

THAT HAS, INDEED, BEEN SHATTERED.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT WORD TO USE.

THE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REPORTEDLY KILLED.

BUT ALSO, THERE IS BEEN AN ABSOLUTE INTERRUPTION OF THE AID FLOWS.

YOU WILL KNOW THAT NOW FOR OVER TWO WEEKS THERE HAS BEEN THE END OF THE FLOW OF BASIC MEDICAL KITS.

WE'VE GOT SIX TONS OF MEDICAL GOODS WAITING TO GO INTO GAZA, NOT ABLE TO GO IN.

WATER RESTRICTIONS.

ELECTRICITY RESTRICTIONS.

AND I SPOKE TO OUR TEAM YESTERDAY, AND WE HAD TO SUSPEND ACTIVITIES.

OBVIOUSLY WE KEEP THIS UNDER REVIEW, BUT WE ARE UNABLE TO DO OUR WORK AT THE MOMENT BECAUSE OF THE BREAKDOWN IN THE CEASE- FIRE THAT YOU REFERRED TO.

OBVIOUSLY THERE IS JUST DREAD, SHEER DREAD THAT EXISTS ON THE MILITARY INSIDE.

AND OBVIOUSLY GREAT FEAR, AS WELL, THAT THERE IS NO WAY THE HOSTAGES ARE GOING TO BE RELEASED, EITHER.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, THERE IS ANOTHER AID WORKER IN GAZA, WE HEARD FROM THIS VOLUNTEER.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WE'VE BEEN PULLING THE REMAINS OF CHILDREN SINCE THIS MORNING.

THERE ARE MANY INJURIES, AND MARTYRS WHO HAVE REACHED THE HOSPITALS.

WE ARE STILL COLLECTING THE REMAINS OF PEOPLE.

HANDS AND FEET.

THERE WAS NO PRIOR WARNING.

IT ALL HAPPENED UNEXPECTEDLY.

AND PEOPLE WERE IN THEIR HOMES.

NOT EVEN OUTSIDE.

>> AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, OR YOU CAN DO OR SAY ABOUT THAT, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE LEGALITY OF ALSO CUTTING OFF, WHAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, CUTTING OFF AND THE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED IT.

ELECTRICITY, HUMANITARIAN AID, ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF.

IS IT EVEN LEGAL TO KEEP DOING THAT?

>> OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT A LAWYER, AND WE ARE NOT SITTING IN A COURT.

BUT WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THIS IS VERY, VERY BAD FOR INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO HUMANITARIAN AID, AND FOR AID WORKERS WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO GO ABOUT THE BUSINESS.

>> OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE THAT YOU ARE ALSO DEALING WITH AROUND THE WORLD, AND THAT IS THE IMPACT OF MUSK'S, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT, DISMANTLING, CUTS, JUST KILLING LIFESAVING AID.

USAID.

IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PROJECTS HAVE BEEN STOPPED AND DEFUNDED, AS THEY WERE WORKING.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS THE IRC, HAS THAT AFFECTED SOME OF YOUR PROJECTS?

AND WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THE COMMUNITY?

>> DEFINITELY.

THE U.S. HAS BEEN THE ANCHOR OF THE GLOBAL AID SYSTEM FOR MANY YEARS.

FOUR IN $10 THAT ARE SPENT ON HUMANITARIAN AID WERE U.S.

DOLLARS.

NOW SECRETARY RUBIO AND THE NEW ADMINISTRATION HAVE SUSPENDED ALL FOREIGN AID.

THE SECRETARY HAS ANNOUNCED THAT 82% OF ALL U.S. GOVERNMENT FUNDING, CONTRACTS, AND GRANTS HAVE BEEN TERMINATED.

AND THAT MEANS THAT EDUCATION PROGRAMS ARE OUT.

LIVELIHOODS AND CLIMATE RESILIENCE PROGRAMS ARE OUT.

SEXUAL AND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH PROGRAMS ARE OUT.

INFECTION PREVENTION AND CONTROL PROGRAMS ARE OUT.

WE DO HAVE WAIVERS FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, FROM THE SUSPENSION, QUOTE UNQUOTE LIFESAVING ACTIVITIES.

IF WE ARE RUNNING AN EMERGENCY HEALTH FACILITY, OR AN EMERGENCY OPERATING ROOM, WE CAN CONTINUE TO RUN THAT.

BUT A BROADER PRIMARY HEALTH CARE CENTER WITHIN WHICH THAT EMERGENCY HEALTH CARE OPERATION IS RUN, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RUN.

SO THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL.

IT HAS AFFECTED NEARLY HALF OF, MORE THAN HALF OF THE WORK WE DO.

SO WE ARE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THE LIFESAVING ACTIVITIES, BUT MORE THAN HALF OF OUR ACTIVITIES HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED OR TERMINATED.

AND THAT MEANS THAT, IN PLACES LIKE SUDAN, IN PLACES LIKE SYRIA, WE ARE UNABLE TO DELIVER SERVICES, WE ARE HAVING TO CLOSE SERVICES.

SO THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL.

AND OUR MESSAGE IS VERY CLEAR, THAT OF COURSE THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO REVIEW THE PRIORITIES OF AMERICAN AID.

IT IS AMERICAN TAXPAYER MONEY.

WE SUPPORT REFORM OF THE AID SYSTEM, AND WE CAN GET ONTO THAT.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT IS THAT THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL SERVICES ARE BEING COMPROMISED, AT A TIME THAT THIS REVIEW IS GOING AHEAD.

THE CONSEQUENCES ARE VERY, VERY SERIOUS INDEED.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT REVIEWING THE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES.

FIRST OF ALL, A JUDGES AND IN THE UNITED STATES THAT GUTTING AND ENDING USAID IS LIKELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT HE ALSO SAID THE USAID HAS BEEN EFFECTIVELY ELIMINATED.

IT CAN NO LONGER DO WHAT IT WAS CREATED TO DO.

WE KNOW FROM OUR COLLEAGUES, WHO ARE REPORTING AND HAVE GONE TO SEE THE RESULTS FROM THIS THAT IT IS COSTING LIVES, DESPITE WHAT MUSK SAYS.

IT IS ACTUALLY COSTING LIVES.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS HEAD OF IRC, BUT ALSO AS A FORMER GOVERNOR OFFICIAL, FOR AN FOREIGN MINISTER THAT HAS DETAILED FOREIGN AID IN THE UK, HOW WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT REFORM VERSUS COMPLETE ELIMINATION?

LET'S SAY THERE IS SOME REFORM NEEDED.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET THE GUTS OF THIS.

BECAUSE WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME, AS YOU HAVE REPORTED WELL OVER MANY YEARS, WHEN THERE ARE PEOPLE IN HUMANITARIAN NEED THAN EVER BEFORE.

THERE'S MORE PRESSURE ON RESOURCES THAN EVER BEFORE.

SO THERE IS MORE NEED FOR REFORM THAN EVER BEFORE.

WHAT DOES REFORM MEAN?

IT MEANS INNOVATIONS OF THE AID SYSTEM PREDICTS CRISIS AND ANTICIPATES IT, RATHER THAN JUST REACTS TO IT.

LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

THE IRC HAS BEEN VOTED ONE OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE COMPANIES IN AMERICA, WE ARE AN NGO, NOT A COMPANY, BUT IT IS FAST COMPANY MAGAZINE.

THEY VOTED AS ONE OF THE MOST INNOVATIVE COMPANIES BECAUSE OF WORK WE DO ANTICIPATE CLIMATE SHOCKS AND SUPPORT HUMANITARIAN WORK BEFORE DISASTER STRIKES, RATHER THAN AFTERWARDS.

SO THERE'S AN INNOVATION PART OF THIS.

THERE'S A VALUE FOR MONEY PART OF THIS.

WE HAVE SHOWN, IN OUR MALNUTRITION PROGRAMS, WE CAN GET MORE THAN 20% GREATER EFFICIENCY, WHICH MEANS HELPING 20% MORE ACUTELY MALNOURISHED KIDS IN THE WORK THAT WE DO.

THIRD EXAMPLE, DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE AID SYSTEM.

PARTS FOR HUMANITARIAN AID, PARTS FOR DEVELOPMENT AID, PARTS FOR CLIMATE FINANCE.

THEY OPERATE IN DIFFERENT SILOS, WITH DIFFERENT TARGETS AND DIFFERENT BUREAUCRACIES.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL.

THERE ARE THREE PRACTICAL EXAMPLES OF HOW WE CAN DRIVE THE AID SYSTEM TO SERVE MORE PEOPLE IN MORE INNOVATIVE WAYS, WITH GREATER VALUE FOR MONEY FOR THE TAXPAYER.

WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT NEWLY WEALTHY COUNTRIES IN THE GULF AND ELSEWHERE ARE CONTRIBUTING THEIR FAIR SHARE TO THE SYSTEM.

BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT IF YOU ARE ILLUMINATING THE SYSTEM BEFORE YOU PUT IN PLACE YOUR REFORMS.

ONCE YOU CLOSE PROGRAMS, SACKED PEOPLE, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO PUT IN PLACE THE REFORMS WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT COST OF HAVING TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN.

SO I THINK THERE'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE HERE, BUT ALSO A VERY PRACTICAL POINT.

SECRETARY RUBIO, WHEN HE WAS A SENATOR, SPOKE VERY ELOQUENTLY ABOUT THE SOFT POWER THAT COMES FROM HUMANITARIAN AID.

BUT ALSO ABOUT THE MORAL IMPERATIVE OF WHICH COUNTRY IS DOING THE RIGHT THING BY THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

HE SAYS HE WANTS TO CONTINUE WITH A FOREIGN AID PROGRAM FOR AMERICA.

THAT'S GOOD.

WE WANT TO WORK WITH HIM TO MAKE SURE HE DELIVERS MAXIMUM IMPACT.

BUT WE CAN ONLY DO THAT IF WE SUSTAIN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND THERE'S ONE OTHER POINT THAT BRINGS THIS HOME, CHRISTIANE, THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

EVEN FOR THE PROGRAMS WHERE WE GOT A WAIVER TO CARRY ON DELIVERING OUR PROGRAMS FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, OR WITH U.S. GOVERNMENT SUPPORT, WE ARE NOT YET BEING FUNDED FOR THEM.

SO THERE IS A DEFINING ACROSS THE SECTOR, AS WELL AS THE ELIMINATION OF VARIOUS POSITIONS AND DEPARTMENTS IN WASHINGTON.

SO THIS HAS VERY PRACTICAL CONSEQUENCES ON THE GROUND, FOR OUR ABILITY TO DELIVER.

AND IT PUTS AT RISK VITAL SERVICES.

>> AND IT IS UNLIKELY TO ENDEAR ANYBODY AROUND THE WORLD TO AMERICA.

PEOPLE WHO ARE LOSING THEIR LIVES, THEIR LIVELIHOODS, THEIR SAFETY, THEIR FREEDOMS ARE GOING TO HAVE THE OPPOSITE EFFECT THAT USAID WAS CREATED FOR.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU ALSO DEAL WITH REFUGEES AND ASYLUM.

SO ASYLUM IS PRETTY MUCH GONE, EXCEPT TO THE DISCRETION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF, FOR INSTANCE, THE WHOLESALE DEPORTATION OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, THE LATEST ONE CAUSED A HUGE RUMP THIS WAS THE PLANELOAD OF VENEZUELAN, TRUMP SAYS GANG MEMBERS, TO ECUADOR AND EL SALVADOR.

WHAT IS THE LAW AROUND THAT IN TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW?

>> WELL, THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR AND THIS AREA, AND I CAN STATE IT.

IT IS THAT THERE, NO ONE SHOULD BE SENT BACK INTO DANGER.

THAT'S THE LAW.

AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT THAT IS ADHERED TO.

IT'S AN AMERICAN LAW AS WELL AS INTERNATIONAL LAW.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE PEOPLE WERE WHO HAVE BEEN SENT BACK ON THE VARIOUS PLANES.

THERE IS A LEGAL ARGUMENT, AGAIN, I CAN'T ADJUDICATE ON IT, ABOUT WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION DID, WHEN THEY DID IT, WHAT THE JUDGE IN THE FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT IS GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

WE DON'T KNOW THE OUTCOME OF THAT.

ALSO, THE CRITICAL POINT, WE DON'T KNOW WHO WAS ON THESE FLIGHTS.

SO THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WAITING FOR THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM TO BE DEALT WITH IN AMERICA, I'VE BEEN ON YOUR SHOW BEFORE SAYING IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE TO WAIT FIVE YEARS TO HAVE THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM DEALT WITH.

THEY'RE WAITING FOR THEIR RIGHT TO BE HEARD.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FAILED IN THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM AND WHO ARE DUE TO BE EXPELLED FROM THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS A DIFFERENT CATEGORY OF PEOPLE, WHERE IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL TO SEND THEM BACK TO, TO SEND THEM AWAY, IF THEY FAILED ON THEIR TEST.

IF THEY ARE NOT IN DANGER WHERE THEY COME FROM.

THERE IS BEEN A SERIES OF ALLEGATION ABOUT PEOPLE'S WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES, WHICH OBVIOUSLY DOES LEAD TO DEPORTATION.

UNTIL WE HAVE THE FACTS OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE THAT ARE BEING DEPORTED, IT'S VERY HARD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A COHERENT CONVERSATION ABOUT WHICH CATEGORY THEY ARE IN.

>> AND YOU MENTIONED THE JUDGE.

HE ORDERED THESE FLIGHTS TO RETURN AND NOT TO PROCEED, AND GET THE ADMINISTRATION DID, AND THERE IS A BATTLE UNDERWAY OVER THAT ISSUE.

I WANT ASK YOU THIS.

I HONESTLY THOUGHT I WAS LITERALLY A CHARACTER IN A GEORGE ORWELL BOOK THIS WEEK.

BECAUSE IT WAS SAID BY TRUMP SUPPORTERS, AND PERHAPS BY ELEMENTS OF THE ADMINISTRATION, THE AFRIKANERS WHOSE ANCESTORS CREATED THE APPALLING, DISCRIMINATORY, RACIST APARTHEID POLICY, WERE BEING TREATED TO ASYLUM PRIVILEGE BY THE UNITED STATES.

AND NOT ONLY THAT, BECAUSE THEY WERE THE CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS OF THEIR TIME.

WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS ADMINISTRATION, WHERE SOMEBODY, AND SOME CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND SOME LIES ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE HAPPENING IN SOUTH AFRICA IS FORMING GOVERNMENT POLICY?

THAT IS ORWELLIAN.

>> WELL, THE FIRST POLITICAL ACTIVITY THAT I EVER TOOK PLACE IN WAS ANTI-APARTHEID ACTIVITY IN THE 1980S.

SO THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN EXTRAORDINARY SITUATION.

SOUTH AFRICA IS A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

IT HOLDS ELECTIONS.

IT ACTUALLY HAD AN ELECTION WHERE THE GOVERNMENT WAS REBUFFED IN THE LAST ELECTION, IT HAS GONE INTO COALITION GOVERNMENT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION, WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT, YOU WILL HAVE TO ASK THEM.

I AM NOT INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION.

THEY ARE, AND THEY WILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT IT IS THAT IS BEING SAID.

I HAVE SEEN AFRIKAANS REPRESENTATIVES SAYING WE DISAGREE WITH THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THEY ARE DOING, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE OUR COUNTRY.

THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE SOUTH AFRICA.

THEY DON'T SEE THEMSELVES AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO CLAIM ASYLUM SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND I THINK THAT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT THE ADMINISTRATION RESPONDING, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE HEADLINES MYSELF, I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE TWEETS, BUT I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT ABLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS THEY THINK THAT THEY ARE SPEAKING TO.

BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THERE REMAINS MASSIVE INEQUALITY IN SOUTH AFRICA.

AND IT IS THE MAJORITY POPULATION THAT IS SUFFERING FROM MOST OF THE INEQUALITY.

SO IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO TAKE THAT UP WITH THE ADMINISTRATION THEMSELVES.

>> THE MAJORITY, OF COURSE, BEING THE BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS.

DAVID MILIBAND, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE WILL HAVE MORE TO DISCUSS IF THIS CONTINUES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

TAKE CARE.

>>> THIS WEEK, AS WE JUST DISCUSSED WITH DAVID MILIBAND, THE CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL WAS WELL AND TRULY SHATTERED.

ISRAEL LAUNCHED WHAT IS CALLED PREEMPTIVE STRIKES AGAIN HAMAS ACROSS GAZA, STARTING ON TUESDAY, KILLING HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIAN INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

AND ADDING TO A DEATH TOLL THAT IS ALREADY 48,000 STRONG SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

ISRAELIS, INCLUDING HOSTAGE FAMILIES, REACTED WITH FURY AND DEMONSTRATIONS, TERRIFIED THAT THE RENEWED WAR IS ESSENTIALLY ALSO A DEATH SENTENCE FOR THEIR LOVED ONE STILL HELD IN CAPTIVITY.

NOW MANY AROUND THE WORLD LAME WESTERN IN ACTION FOR ALL THE SUFFERING, BY ALLOWING THIS BRUTAL WAR TO CONTINUE UNABATED.

REJECTING COMPLACENCY AND COMPLICITY IS THE BEATING HEART OF THE NEW BOOK BY JOURNALIST AND NOVELIST OMAR.

HE JOINED ME FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL DISSERTATION IN THIS BOOK.

YOU ARE ALSO A FORMER JOURNALIST, AND YOU KNOW THAT THE CEASE-FIRE HAS BEEN BROKEN IN GAZA BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA, AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE GONE BACK TO WAR.

JUST YOUR REACTION AND THAT, AFTER A RELATIVELY QUIET PERIOD OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS?

>> I THINK IT'S A CONTINUATION OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN, NOT JUST OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF, BUT OVER MANY, MANY YEARS BEFORE THE STORY BECAME THE CENTER OF INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION.

I MEAN, THERE IS, ESSENTIALLY, NO REAL CONSEQUENCE FOR BREAKING THE CEASE-FIRE, SO WE ARE SITTING HERE, WE ARE DISCUSSING THE SORT OF EFFECTIVE THIS, BUT IN REALITY, I HAVE A VERY HARD TIME BELIEVING THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY REAL CONSEQUENCE FOR THIS.

>> LET ME GO BACK A LITTLE BIT TO THE BEGINNING.

YOU ARE OF EGYPTIAN ORIGIN.

YOU BECAME A CANADIAN CITIZEN.

YOU HAVE BECOME A U.S. CITIZEN, AS WELL, A FEW YEARS AGO.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT PUSHED YOUR FAMILY TO THE WEST, AND WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE WEST WHILE YOU ARE IN THE WEST, AND LED YOU TO JOURNALISM AND NOW TO WRITE THIS VERY PERSONAL AND MORE/BULIMIC?

>> SHORTLY AFTER I WAS BORN IN THE EARLY 80s, EGYPT, WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PARTICULARLY FREE IN MY LIFETIME, WAS UNDER AN ESPECIALLY BRITTLE KIND OF MARTIAL LAW AND MY FATHER WAS WALKING HOME FROM WORK, AND TWO SOLDIERS DECIDED TO GIVE HIM A HARD TIME.

HE GOT OUT OF IT.

BUT MY FATHER LOVED EGYPT.

HE MARINATED IN THAT PLACE.

NONETHELESS, HE DECIDED TO GET OUT.

IT WAS NOT SO MUCH WHAT CANADA WAS, OR WHAT THE UNITED STATES WAS.

IT WAS WHAT IT WASN'T.

I COULD GO THERE AND I COULD TAKE LOOKS OF THE LIBRARY AND NOT WORRY ABOUT SOMEONE COMING TO VISIT FROM THE GOVERNMENT, OR IF I TALKED ABOUT POLITICS, OR I APPEARED ON A SHOW LIKE THIS.

IT BECAME THIS SORT OF NEGATIVE SPACE ON WHICH I SUPERIMPOSED EVERYTHING I NEEDED THE WEST TO BE.

AND IT WAS ONLY MUCH LATER, WHEN I ARRIVED HERE, THAT I HAD TO CONTEND WITH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT I NEEDED THIS PLACE TO BE AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY WAS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE ABILITY TO SPEAK WITHOUT FEAR.

NOW YOU SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR EYES.

KHALIL IN COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY HAS BEEN WRITTEN WITHOUT CHARGE, WRITTEN A LETTER THAT IS BEING STUMBLED OUT, CALLING HIMSELF A POLITICAL PRISONER AND ALL THAT.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS GOING AFTER HIM.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO MAY BE SIMILARLY AT RISK, A LOT BECAUSE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT AND GAUGING AND DEMONSTRATIONS ABOUT THE SITUATION IN GAZA.

ARE YOU AFRAID NOW, AT ALL, FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY?

>> I THINK WHEN YOU GROW UP IN THE PART OF THE WORLD THAT I GREW UP IN, YOU TEND TO SEE THESE THINGS IN A PARTICULAR LIGHT.

WHEN THIS FIRST HAPPENED, THERE WAS THIS IMMENSE BURST OF OUTRAGE, WHICH CONTINUES RIGHT NOW.

BUT A LOT OF IT WAS AROUND THIS IDEA THAT THIS HUMAN BEING HAD COMMITTED NO CRIME.

BUT I THINK THE POINT IS THAT HE HAS COMMITTED NO CRIME.

THIS IS, EFFECTIVELY, ANYONE WHO HAS LIVED UNDER AN ADMINISTRATION OR A FORM OF GOVERNMENT WHO DOES THIS KIND OF THING KNOWS FULL WELL THAT THE POINT IS TO DO THIS TO SOMEBODY WHO HAS COMMITTED NO CRIME.

IT IS TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN DO THIS.

IN TERMS OF MY OWN SAFETY, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S COMING.

I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK, LET ALONE OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

BUT I DO THINK WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING A MOMENT LIKE THIS, WHAT YOU ARE WATCHING IN REALITY IS A SYSTEM OF POWER, LETTING YOU KNOW THAT IT CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING.

THAT IS THE POINT.

>> SO I'M GOING TO GET THAT TITLE OF YOUR BOOK IN A MOMENT.

BUT BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER, YOU CAN DO THE WEST, YOUR PARENTS CAN TO THE WEST, AND YOU HAD THIS IDEA ABOUT THE VALUES AND IDEALS.

AND YET, YOUR BOOK CLEARLY IS ABOUT THESE IDEALS, HAVING BEEN BETRAYED.

YOU FEEL BETRAYED BY THE LIBERAL WEST.

EVEN BEFORE THE CARNAGE IN GAZA, WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL, ET CETERA.

AND YOU'VE DEDICATED MOSTLY TO THIS, WHAT YOU CALL, MORAL BANKRUPTCY OF WESTERN LIBERALISM.

I WANT TO READ THIS QUOTE.

THIS IS NOT AN ACCOUNT OF THAT CARNAGE.

THIS IS AN ACCOUNT OF A FRACTURE.

A BREAKING AWAY FROM THE NOTION THAT A POLITE WESTERN LIBERAL EVER STOOD FOR ANYTHING AT ALL.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED FOR ALL THE FUTURE SHED IT WILL PROMPT WILL BE REMEMBERED AS THE MOMENT BILLIONS OF PEOPLE LOOKED TO THE WEST, THE RULES-BASED ORDER, THE SHELL OF MODERN LIBERALISM IN THE CAPITALISTIC THING IT SERVES, AND THEY SAID I WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

THAT IS VERY, VERY DRAMATIC.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT WAS PERSONALIZED FOR YOU.

WHAT WAS THE MOMENT YOU CAME UP WITH THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I TEND TO GO BACK TO THE DESCRIPTION THAT HEMINGWAY HAS OF HOW HIS CHARACTER WENT AND CREPT.

LITTLE BY LITTLE, THEN ALL AT ONCE.

I SPENT THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF WATCHING EVIDENCE OF THE WORST THINGS HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO TO ONE ANOTHER.

THAT, IN ITSELF, IS A LIFE- CHANGING THING.

BUT TO WATCH THAT AND TO SIMULTANEOUSLY WATCH THESE PRESS CONFERENCES, IN WHICH A SPOKESPERSON FOR THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, AND I ASSUME NOW THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION AND THE RESTRICTIONS TO COME WILL TELL YOU HOW COMMITTED THEY ARE TO PEACE, AND HOW NECESSARY AND IMPORTANT AS ALWAYS.

I THINK IT CREATES A KIND OF THRESHOLD OF DISSOCIATION THAT I PERSONALLY CANNOT MEET ANYMORE.

FOR ME, I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS ABOUT THE BARGES AND THROUGH THE DOOR, PRETENDING TO WANT TO PICK A BUNCH OF FIGHTS, AND THE FIRST TWO REVIEWS ONLINE OF THIS BOOK WERE A ONE STAR REVIEW AND A FIVE-STAR REVIEW, AND NEITHER PERSON HAD READ THE BOOK.

AND I GET THAT.

I GET THAT THAT IS ALL SORT OF WHAT I'M IN FOR.

BUT FOR ME, THE DEFINING AFTERTASTE OF THIS BOOK IS A DEEP KIND OF UNCERTAINTY.

BECAUSE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF MY LIFE, I HAVE AND ORIENTED TOWARDS WESTERN LIBERALISM.

THAT'S WHO I AM.

THAT'S WHO I'VE BEEN FOR ALL OF MY ADULT LIFE.

AND AS A RESULT OF THE THINGS I'VE SEEN, FIRST IN MY JOURNALISM CAREER, AND THEN OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF, I HAVE COME UNTETHERED FROM THAT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I KNOW WHO I AM ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS.

>> OMAR, I'VE GOT THE BOOK IN MY HANDS.

IT'S VERY VIBRANT, THE COVER, AND OBVIOUSLY THE TITLE.

AND IT'S VERY UNUSUAL.

SO I'M JUST GOING TO SHOW IT LIKE THIS, BECAUSE THERE'S A WHITE HIGHLIGHT, WHICH IS THE MAIN TITLE OF THE BOOK, AND THEN THERE IS THE REST OF THE CENTERS, WHICH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

SO I'M GOING TO READ IT.

THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK IS ONE DAY EVERYONE WILL ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AGAINST THIS.

THE FULL TITLE OF THIS IS ONE DAY, WHEN IT'S SAFE, WHEN THERE IS NO PERSONAL DOWNSIDE TO CALLING AND WHAT IT IS, WHEN IT'S TOO LATE TO HOLD ANYONE ACCOUNTABLE, EVERYONE WILL, OF COURSE, ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AGAINST THIS.

I ADDED THE OF COURSE FOR EMPHASIS.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, YOU EXPLAIN IT.

>> I TEND TO THINK IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF PATTERN RECOGNITION.

I WAS THINKING OF PATTERNS RELATED TO THE END OF APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA.

THE END OF SEGREGATION IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND HOW IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT, LONG AFTER THE FACT, TO FIND SOMEONE WHO IS IN FAVOR OF THOSE THINGS.

IT'S MUCH, MUCH EASIER WHEN IT IS SAFE, TO THEN SORT OF CHANGE WHERE YOU ALWAYS STOOD ON A POSITION.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE DISCOVERED SINCE THE BOOK HAS COME OUT, IS THAT PEOPLE TEND TO READ THAT TITLE AND ASSUME TWO THINGS ON MY BEHALF.

FIRST, THAT WHEN I SAY ONE DAY, I MEAN NEXT WEEK.

WHICH I DON'T.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I AM A WRITER, WHICH MEANS I GO TO A LOT OF LITERARY FESTIVALS, AND VIRTUALLY ALL THOSE LITERARY FESTIVALS NOW BEGIN WITH A LAND ACKNOWLEDGMENT.

RELATED TO THE DISPLACEMENT AND GENOCIDE OF THE INDIGENOUS POPULATION ON WHICH THESE COUNTRIES NOW STAND.

THAT DID NOT HAPPEN A WEEK AFTER.

THAT TOOK A VERY LONG TIME.

THE OTHER PART OF IT, I THINK, IS THAT SOME PEOPLE ASSUME THAT WHEN THAT DAY COMES IT WILL BE A CELEBRATORY THING.

AND CERTAINLY ON MY PART IT WON'T BE.

BECAUSE I WILL BE THINKING OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO, WHOSE LIVES WERE RUINED OR ENDED IN BETWEEN WHEN THIS CARNAGE BEGINS AND WHEN WE FINALLY GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE CAN CALL IT WHAT IT IS.

>> I'VE CHOSEN SEVERAL QUOTES, BUT YOU ALSO THE PASSAGE YOU WOULD LIKE TO READ.

SO I WONDERED IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT NOW.

>> SURE.

A CHASM HAS DEVELOPED THESE LAST FEW MONTHS.

ONE OF MANY, BUT ONE THAT CANNOT BE BRIDGED.

ON ONE SIDE IS A PORTION OF SOCIETY THAT FEARS NOTHING MORE THAN THE DISCONTINUATION OF NORMALCY.

THAT BELIEVES, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HORROR EACH NEW DAY BRINGS, THAT WHAT MATTERS MOST IS TO LIVE AS ONE HAD LIVED BEFORE.

ANSWERING EMAILS AND MEETING DEADLINES, MAINTAINING PRODUCTIVITY.

ON THE OTHER IS THAT PORTION, WHICH, HAVING WITNESSED THE HORROR, IS SIMPLY UNABLE TO CONTINUE AS BEFORE.

HOW DOES ONE LIVE, HEARING THE SCREAMS, BEARING WITNESS TO THE BODIES?

HOW DOES ANYTHING ELSE MATTER?

THE FEAR OF SOME COMFORT DISAPPEARING COLLIDES WITH A DIFFERENT FEAR.

A FEAR THAT ANY SOCIETY WHO IS FUNCTIONING DEMANDS ONE IGNORE CARNAGE FOR THIS SCALE FOR THE SAKE OF ARTIFICIAL NORMALCY IS, BY DEFINITION, SOCIOPATHIC.

>> IT IS ALL INCREDIBLY POWERFUL.

BEFORE WE CARRY ON WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA, BECAUSE A LOT OF IT IS AIMED AT THAT.

TELL A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE YOU STARTED TO COME INTO FACE- TO-FACE WITH VIOLENCE, WITH WAR, WITH THE TOTAL UGLINESS OF SOCIETY.

HE BECAME A JOURNALIST RIGHT AFTER 9/11.

>> YEAH, I WAS 19 YEARS OLD WHEN THE ATTACKS HAPPENED.

A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER I WAS WORKING FOR MY STUDENT NEWSPAPER .

ALL I REALLY KNEW WAS THAT THE WORLD WAS CHANGING IN SOME FUNDAMENTAL WAY, AND I WANTED TO BE THERE TO WITNESS IT AND THE ONLY THING I KNOW HOW TO DO IS WRITE.

SO JOURNALISM ALLOWED ME THE AVENUE TO SORT OF MIX THOSE TWO THINGS.

IT WAS MY FIRST ASSIGNMENT OVERSEAS THAT BEGAN TO SORT OF RESHAPE MY VIEW, NOT JUST OF THE WEST, BUT MY RELATIONSHIP TO IT.

I WAS WHEN AFGHANISTAN DURING THE EARLY DAYS OF THE NATO INVASION, AND YOU SEE THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, WHICH HAS AN INNER WIRE AND AN OUTER WIRE, AND THE OUTER WIRE IS WHERE ALL THE ATTACKS HAPPENED.

AND THE OUTER WIRE IS ALMOST, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, GUARDED BY TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN.

SO THERE'S A HIERARCHY OF WHOSE LIFE IS MORE EXPENDABLE THAN WHOSE.

AND THEN YOU END UP IN A PLACE LIKE GUANTANAMO BAY, WHERE I COVERED THE MILITARY TRIALS.

AND YOU WATCH THE OTHER LAYERS OF VIOLENCE.

AFGHANISTAN WAS MY EDUCATION ON THE PHYSICAL LAYER OF VIOLENCE.

GUANTANAMO WAS AN EDUCATION IN THE BUREAUCRATIC VIOLENCE.

LINGUISTIC VIOLENCE.

EUPHEMISTIC VIOLENCE.

GOING TO REPLACE CAMP FIVE, CAMP SIX, THE DETENTION CAMPS IN GUANTANAMO, AND ASKING A SOLDIER A QUESTION AND SAYING SO, WHETHER DID THE PRISONERS, AND IMMEDIATELY BEING CUT OFF BY A SOLDIER WHO SAYS THERE ARE NO PRISONERS HERE, THERE ARE ONLY DETAINEES.

BECAUSE A PRISONER IMPLIES A PRISON SENTENCE, AND SOMEONE HAS TO DEFINE THAT.

A DETAINEE YOU CAN JUST HOLD FOREVER.

SO THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY MY EDUCATION ON THE VARIOUS KINDS OF VIOLENCE, IN THE MOMENT THAT I WAS LIVING THROUGH.

AND IN THEIR TOTALITY THEY SORT OF RESHAPED MY VIEW OF THE WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW, I HEAR YOU SAYING PART OF YOUR AIM IS A JOURNALIST, AND AS A WRITER IS TO HUMANIZE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HUMANIZE.

AND IT APPEARS, CERTAINLY FROM WHAT I AM READING IN THIS CURRENT BOOK, AND FROM INTERVIEWS YOU'VE HAD, YOU ARE TRYING TO FORCE AMERICAN READERS TO THINK OF PALESTINIAN VIC TERMS, IN THIS CASE, NOT AS THEM, BUT AS US.

>> I MEAN, MY HOPE IS THAT WE THINK OF EVERYBODY AS US.

AND THAT I AM IN A POSITION TO ACKNOWLEDGE HOW CONTROVERSIAL THAT SOUNDS IN THIS INTERVIEW.

IT STRIKES ME, FRANKLY, AS ASTOUNDING.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE DONE INTERVIEWS WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY ANGRY AT THIS BOOK.

AND I GET THAT, THAT IS WHAT BOOKS ARE FOR.

I FULLY GET THAT.

BUT I'M CONSTANTLY FASCINATED AT THIS SITUATION, WHERE I FIND MYSELF IN CONVERSATION WITH SOMEBODY WHO EFFECTIVELY TELLS ME SOMETHING LIKE OH, YOU DON'T BELIEVE THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD BE SLAUGHTERED?

WHO DO YOU BELIEVE SHOULD BE SLAUGHTERED THEN?

THIS INCREDIBLE, IMAGINATIVE POVERTY IN TERMS OF SOMETHING BETTER THAN THIS EXISTING.

THIS NOTION THAT THERE ARE ONLY TWO ROLES YOU CAN OCCUPY.

YOU CAN EITHER BE STEPPING ON THE NECK OR YOU CAN HAVE YOUR NECK STEPPED ON.

I THINK IT IS SUCH A DESTRUCTIVE MODE OF BEING IN THE WORLD.

SO IF THE BOOK COMES OFF AS WANTING TO HUMANIZE PALESTINIANS, OF COURSE.

OF COURSE.

BUT THIS SORT OF COROLLARY THAT IS IMMEDIATELY IMPLIED, THAT I AM LOOKING TO DEHUMANIZED SOMEBODY ELSE STRIKES ME AS INCREDIBLY DESTRUCTIVE.

>> DO YOU FEEL, BUT THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY?

THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DEHUMANIZED?

>> NO, I DON'T.

I HAVE HAD SOME BAD INTERVIEWS, AND I APOLOGIZE.

>> NO, THAT'S OKAY.

BECAUSE IT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE WE LIVE, ACTUALLY, IN THE MOMENT WHERE, I DON'T KNOW, SHOULD I SAY HALF THE WORLD?

NO.

MAYBE THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD IS WATCHING AND EMPATHIZING WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

BUT A HUGE MAJORITY -- AMOUNT OF THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY WESTERN LIBERALS, ARE IDENTIFYING WITH THE ACTIVE BARBARIC SAVAGERY THAT HAPPENED TO THE ISRAELIS, TO THE ON OCTOBER 7th.

THERE IS A NARRATIVE THAT NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET, AND EVEN IN ISRAEL, I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY COLLEAGUES THERE, AND YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE STORY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THEIR NAME, TO THE GAZANS.

AND POSSIBLY, AT THE BEGINNING WE WERE HEARING THAT THE PALESTINIANS WERE NOT GETTING THE FULL STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

ALL OF THIS TO ASK YOU, WHERE IS THE HOPE, THAT YOU CAN SEE, OR NOT, MAYBE, THAT EVERYBODY'S NARRATIVE GETS TOLD?

>> YOU KNOW, I TEND TO THINK OF THIS BOOK, AS ABSURD AS THIS MAY SOUND, I TEND TO THINK OF THIS BOOK IS THE MOST HOPEFUL AND I'VE WRITTEN.

GRANTED, MY PREVIOUS TWO WERE STONE COLD BOMBERS, SO IT IS NOT AN INCREDIBLY HIGH THRESHOLD THE PAST.

BUT AS DISILLUSIONED AS I BECOME ABOUT VIRTUALLY EVERY LOAD DURING INSTITUTIONAL BEAM OF THE WESTERN WORLD, POLITICAL, ACADEMIC, CULTURAL, IN SOME CASES JOURNALISTIC, I HAVE BEEN SO INSPIRED BY WHAT INDIVIDUALS ARE DOING.

IN COMMUNITY, IN SOLIDARITY WITH ONE ANOTHER.

AT GREAT PERSONAL RISK.

TO STAND UP FOR SOMETHING THAT IS OTHER THAN THIS.

I GREW UP IN PART OF THE WORLD THAT WAS BUILT BY MIGRANT LABOR , AND THOSE LABORERS HAD NO RIGHTS AT ALL AND NONE.

SO I GREW UP WITH THIS IMPLICATION, THIS UNSPOKEN IMPLICATION THAT THERE WAS A GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS WHO WERE, QUITE SIMPLY, SUBHUMAN.

FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE SYSTEM TO FUNCTION, THEY HAD TO REMAIN SUBHUMAN.

DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE IN THE WAY THAT YOU CARE ABOUT SOMEBODY THAT YOU CONSIDER FULLY HUMAN.

AND I THINK IN ANY SITUATION, IN THE GULF COUNTRIES WHERE I LIVE, IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE I LIVE NOW, ANY SITUATION, WHERE THERE IS AN UNSPOKEN AGREEMENT TO CONSIDER A GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS SUBHUMAN, YOU ARE IN A VERY, VERY DANGEROUS SOCIETY.

BECAUSE A, IT NEVER REMAINS THAT GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS.

ONCE THE IMPULSES EXERCISED IT CANNOT REMAIN CONFINED.

AND B, EVEN IF IT WERE TO REMAIN CONFINED, THAT MAKES IT NO LESS EVIL.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, THEN, DO YOU FEEL LIBERATED AFTER WRITING THIS?

HAS IT LIFTED AWAIT FROM YOUR SHOULDERS OF HAVING TO HOLD THIS IN?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

WHICH IS STRANGE FOR ME TO SAY, BECAUSE THE ONLY THING I KNOW HOW TO DO IS WRITE.

SO, GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHEN I SIT WITH A QUESTION THAT ASKED NO SENSE TO ME, OR WHEN I'M TRYING TO CONTEND WITH THE WAY THE WORLD IS WORKING THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME, MY DEFAULT MODE IS TO SORT OF PUT IT ON THE PAGE AND MAKE IT SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEM, AND THEN THERE IS A KIND OF CATHARSIS INVOLVED IN THAT.

AND IN THIS SITUATION THAT WAS NOT THE CASE.

I FINISHED WRITING THIS BOOK AND I FELT A LIGHTER.

I FELT NO SENSE OF RELIEF OR REMOVAL.

I THINK WHAT IS CHANGED FOR ME IS A KIND OF NEGATION OF THAT, AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT I DON'T KNOW IF THIS BOOK IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT ABOUT MY OWN WORK.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT, HAD I NOT WRITTEN IT, I DON'T THINK I WOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO LIVE WITH MYSELF.

I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CALL MYSELF A WRITER.

SO THAT WAS THE IMPULSE.

BUT IN TERMS OF CATHARSIS, USUALLY MY ANSWER WOULD BE YES.

IN THIS CASE, UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS NO.

>> I WILL TELL YOU, THE TITLE IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL OF US.

ONE DAY, EVERYONE WILL HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST THIS.

OMAR EL AKKAD , THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> IS A PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW TO THE FIGHT TO SAVE AMERICA'S GREEN SPACES.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS AXING KEY FEDERAL PROJECTS, AND FEARS ARE GROWING THE PUBLIC LANDS, INCLUDING ICONIC AREAS OF NATURAL BEAUTY, COULD BE DEVASTATED.

IN A CONVERSATION WITH WALTER ISAACSON, THE PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND EXPLAINS HOW THESE SWEEPING CUTS WILL IMPACT AMERICA'S PARKS , AND WHY EVERY COMMUNITY NEEDS ACCESS TO THESE GREEN SPACES.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, DR. KERRY HAUSER, THE SHOW.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, WALTER.

>> YOU'VE JUST TAKEN OVER THE TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND.

EVER SINCE TEDDY ROOSEVELT, AMERICANS HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON.

THEY BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE GREAT AND FOR THE PUBLIC, LIKE THE PARKS SYSTEM.

TELL ME WHAT YOUR ORGANIZATION DOES IN WORKING WITH THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE AND OTHERS?

>> INKS FOR ASKING.

TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND IS A LITTLE OVER 50 YEARS OLD.

WE ARE A LARGE NATIONAL CONSERVATION ORGANIZATION THAT WORKS IN BOTH RURAL AND URBAN COMMUNITIES, WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES TPO FAIRLY UNIQUE.

THE OTHER THING THAT MAKES US UNIQUE AS A LOT OF OTHER LAND TRUSTS AND CONSERVATION ORGANIZATIONS WILL OFTEN WORK TO PRESERVE LANDS AND LANDSCAPES FOR THE BENEFIT OF HABITAT AND ECOSYSTEMS, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES TPO UNIQUE IS THAT OUR ENTIRE MISSION IS MAKING SURE THAT WE CONNECT PEOPLE TO THOSE OUTDOOR PLACES, FOR ALL THE HEALTH BENEFITS, THE MENTAL HEALTH BENEFITS, AND OBVIOUSLY THE ONGOING CONSERVATION.

IF YOU CONNECT PEOPLE TO THOSE OUTDOOR SPACES, HOPEFULLY THEY ALSO BECOME CONSERVATIONISTS.

THEY CARE ABOUT THOSE PLACES AND THEY WILL PROTECT THEM.

>> WHEN YOU SAY ABOUT CONNECTING PEOPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TOLD ME THAT IS ON YOUR WEBSITE, IS THE ONE OF EVERY THREE AMERICANS DOES NOT HAVE AN EASY ACCESS TO THE OUTDOORS.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

TPL ALSO HAS A PROGRAM CALLED THE 10 MINUTE WALK, AND OUR GOAL IS TO MAKE SURE THAT NO AMERICAN IS FARTHER THAN A 10 MINUTE WALK FROM A LOCAL PARK, A GREEN SPACE, A NATIONAL PARK, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE.

AND 100 MILLION AMERICANS ARE STILL FARTHER FROM A 10 MINUTE WALK.

THAT ALSO INCLUDES 28 MILLION CHILDREN.

>> SO THAT MEANS YOU REALLY DO WORK IN URBAN AREAS, NOT JUST IN THE YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK -LIKE AREAS.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY DREW ME TO THE WORK, THE BALANCE BETWEEN URBAN AND RURAL COMMUNITIES, WHICH, HAVING LIVED IN RURAL COLORADO FOR THE LAST DOZEN OR SO YEARS, I REALLY SEE THAT SORT OF URBAN AND RURAL DIVIDE.

AND IT DOES MAKE SENSE, WHEN YOU SEE BIG NATIONAL LANDSCAPES, LIKE THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE AND SOME OF THOSE LANDSCAPES THAT YOU REFERRED TO EARLIER, AND THE OUTDOORS CAN MEAN A POCKET PARK IN DETROIT.

FOR A VERY URBAN COMMUNITY.

SOMETIMES THOSE COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO OTHER GREEN SPACES.

SO THAT BALANCE HAS REALLY BEEN VERY IMPORTANT, AND IT REALLY, AGAIN, CENTERS AROUND PEOPLE.

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND WHAT IT IS DOING.

TELL ME HOW YOU RELATE TO IT, HOW IT AFFECTS YOUR ORGANIZATION, HOW YOU RELATE TO WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES ON THESE THINGS.

>> IT DOES, INDEED.

TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND CERTAINLY IS A BENEFICIARY OF FEDERAL GRANTS AND CONTRACTS, AND PERHAPS MORE, WALTER, IS THAT WE ARE OFTEN A PASS-THROUGH TO SMALLER LOCAL COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS OR NONPROFITS THAT MIGHT BE BUILDING A LOCAL PARK, MIGHT BE DOING CONSERVATION WORK, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE.

OFTEN TIMES WE ARE A CONDUIT TO THAT, AND CERTAINLY PARTNER WITH THOSE ORGANIZATIONS.

WE CURRENTLY HAVE ABOUT 100 PROJECTS THAT ARE IN SOME FORM OF LIMBO, GIVEN SOME OF THE PULLBACKS, SOME OF THESE STALLS IN FEDERAL GRANTS.

CERTAINLY OUR CONCERNS AROUND LAYOFFS IN THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, AND IN OTHER PUBLIC LANDS MANAGED ENTITIES.

A COUPLE OF THOSE, JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, WE HAVE A VERY LARGE TRAIL PROJECT OUTSIDE OF CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE.

WE HAVE A SCHOOLYARD PROJECT IN RURAL OREGON.

AND WE HAVE A VERY LARGE WORKING FOREST CONSERVATION PROJECT, MORE THAN 10,000 ACRES IN NORTHERN IDAHO.

THAT IS WORKING FOR US.

SO THOSE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES OF SOME OF THE PROJECTS THAT ARE VERY LOCAL, AND WE WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH THOSE LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO ACTIVATE THOSE PROJECTS.

THOSE ARE THE ONES AT RISK OF NOT GETTING TO COMPLETION.

>> TELL ME ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITY SCHOOLYARDS.

>> WELL, IT'S A FAIRLY EASY AND SIMPLE IDEA.

I MAYBE WOULD EVEN ASK YOU, IF YOU THINK OF A PUBLIC SCHOOLYARD IN THE COUNTRY, WHAT COMES TO MIND?

AND I WOULD SPECULATE IT IS CONCRETE, ASPHALT, AND A CHAIN- LINK FENCE.

AND WE HAVE 90,000 OF THOSE IN THE COUNTRY THAT ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLYARDS.

JUST THINK ABOUT THAT VERY HE IS OPPORTUNITY TO TRANSFORM THOSE SCHOOLYARDS IN OUR COUNTRY.

90,000 OF THEM, AND THEY REPRESENT 2 MILLION ACRES IN THE UNITED STATES.

TRUST FOR PUBLIC LANDS COMMUNITY SCHOOLYARDS PROGRAM ESSENTIALLY GOES IN AND TRANSFORMS THOSE SCHOOLYARDS INTO MUCH MORE CLIMATE RESILIENT MATERIAL, THOSE PROJECTS ARE DONE WITH THE LOCAL COMMUNITY, SCHOOL-AGED CHILDREN HELPED DESIGN THEM.

THOSE LOCAL COMMUNITIES REALLY ON THOSE PARTICULAR PROJECTS.

AND WE'VE DONE 200 IN NEW YORK CITY ALONE.

>> HOW MUCH OF YOUR MONEY COMES FROM PRIVATE DONATIONS, AND CANNOT MAKE UP FOR THINGS THAT WILL BE SCALED BACK BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

>> IT CERTAINLY CAN.

WE ARE PROBABLY IN ABOUT 75% OF OUR BUDGET IS PRIVATE PHILANTHROPY.

WE ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER SOCIAL SERVICES AND OTHER PARTS OF OUR COUNTRY THAT ARE AT RISK RIGHT NOW, SO ASKING PRIVATE PHILANTHROPY TO FILL IN THE GAP FOR ALL OF THOSE IS PRETTY SIGNIFICANT.

SO WE ARE CERTAINLY HOPEFUL THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S AND THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION WILL REALLY WRECKING GUYS THAT AMERICANS ACROSS THE BOARD SUPPORT PUBLIC LANDS.

THEY SUPPORT THE OUTDOORS.

POLL AFTER POLL WILL ABSOLUTELY DEMONSTRATE THAT, TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

>> PEOPLE ACROSS THE BOARD SUPPORT IT, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS, BUT EVEN DONALD TRUMP HAS SUPPORTED IT.

HE SIGNED, WHAT WAS IT, THE GREAT AMERICAN OUT DOOR ACT?

I THINK HE ONCE SAID IT WAS PROBABLY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THING SINCE TEDDY ROOSEVELT.

SO HE SIGNED THAT.

WHAT DID IT DO, AND THINK HE WILL CONTINUE TO CARE ABOUT PUBLIC LANDS?

HE SEEMS TO ACTUALLY BE INTERESTED IN IT.

>> YEAH, THAT WAS SIGNED IN THE ROOSEVELT ROOM IN AUGUST OF 2020.

THAT WAS A BIPARTISAN MEASURE, AND I WOULD SAY IT WAS THE GREATEST GESTURE TOWARDS PUBLIC LANDS AND THE OUTDOORS SINCE TEDDY ROOSEVELT.

IT WAS VERY, VERY SIGNIFICANT.

WHAT IT ESSENTIALLY DID IS IT SEALED IN FUNDING FOR THE LAND AND WATER CONSERVATION FUND, WHICH HELPS WITH INFRASTRUCTURE FOR NATIONAL PARKS AND MAKE SURE THAT SO MUCH OF THOSE FUNDS CONTINUE TO HELP SUPPORT SO MANY OF OUR PUBLIC LANDSCAPES AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT GOES INTO THEM.

AND I WOULD SAY FAST FORWARD FOUR YEARS LATER, JUST IN JANUARY, PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED THE EXPLORE ACT, WHICH WAS ALSO BIPARTISAN.

IT WAS UNANIMOUSLY PASSED THE THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

AND THAT ALSO CONTINUES TO SUPPORT THE OUTDOORS, CONSERVATION, ALL THE THINGS THAT GO INTO THAT.

AND AGAIN, A VERY SIGNIFICANT GESTURE.

IT WAS ORDERED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ACROSS THE BOARD, BIPARTISAN, AND IT GOT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

IN THE VERY FINAL HOURS OF THE LAST CONGRESS BY CONSENT.

>> DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOW SCALING THIS BACK, OR DO YOU THINK HE MIGHT STILL BE AN ADVOCATE FOR PUBLIC ACCESS TO THE OUTDOORS?

>> IT'S HARD TO TELL.

I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT HE AND THE ADMINISTRATION WILL LISTEN TO THE PUBLIC AROUND THEIR SUPPORT FOR PUBLIC LANDS.

AND JUST THE SIMPLE DOLLARS AND CENTS AROUND IT.

THE OUTDOOR ECONOMY IS A $1.2 TRILLION A YEAR ECONOMIC IMPACT TO OUR COUNTRY.

IT EMPLOYS 5 MILLION JOBS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE ALONE.

THAT IS A $55 BILLION ECONOMIC IMPACT, THAT IS HALF 1 MILLION JOBS.

AND THAT IS NOT EVEN INCLUDE NATIONAL FORESTS, SO THIS IS A HUGE ECONOMIC ENGINE.

IF NOTHING ELSE, SORT OF PROMPT SUPPORT FOR THE OUT DOORS, OUTDOOR RECREATION, AND CERTAINLY FOR CONSERVATION.

THE BASIC ECONOMY.

I WOULD MAYBE GIVE YOU ONE MORE PROOF POINT, AND THAT IS THAT TRUST REPUBLIC LAND, ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO, CENTER OF EXCELLENCE, IS WE HELP LOCAL COMMUNITIES, STATES, TAX ENDORSED GROUPS RUN MEASURES, LOCALLY, TO FUND PARKS, TRAILS, HISTORIC SITES, FLOODPLAIN MITIGATION EFFORTS, AND WE HELP WITH 23 MEASURES IN NOVEMBER, 2024.

IN ALL 23 OF THEM WON.

>> EVEN WITH TRUMP WINNING THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, PEOPLE ARE STILL VOTING FOR THIS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE HAD FOUR MEASURES IN ORDER WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP WON IN THE 68, 69, 70% RANGE.

IN THOSE MEASURES ALSO WON 70+ PERCENT.

THEY WERE CLIMATE MITIGATION, FLOOD PREVENTION, TRAIL BUILDING, PARK BUILDING MEASURES, LAKE COUNTY, FLORIDA BEING ONE OF THOSE.

I THINK WHAT IT SAYS IS THAT WHEN YOU WORK WITH LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND WORK WITH LOCAL VOTERS TO DESCRIBE AND TO SORT OF ENGENDER SUPPORT AROUND THOSE MEASURES, THEY GET TO THE BALLOT AND PEOPLE CAN VOTE LOCALLY.

AND THEY VOTE FOR THE OUTDOORS.

NOT ONLY DID THEY VOTE FOR THE OUTDOORS, NATURE, ACCESS TO NATURE, THEY'RE WILLING TO HELP PAY FOR IT.

AND I THINK THERE'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PROOF POINTS THAT I HOPE OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND CERTAINLY THE PRESIDENT WILL LISTEN TO.

BECAUSE THIS IS, AGAIN, VERY LOCAL.

A RED COMMUNITY, BLUE COMMUNITY , PURPLE COMMUNITY, THIS IS UNIVERSAL.

THE OUTDOORS AND NATURE IS NOT A CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC.

IT IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW PLACES IN OUR COUNTRY WHERE THERE IS ACTUAL UNITY.

>> YOU SAY IT'S A VERY LOCAL ISSUE.

TELL ME WHY IT SHOULD NOT JUST REFUNDED LOCALLY RATHER THAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISSUE?

>> WELL, I WOULD HOPE THAT THERE IS ALWAYS A PARTNERSHIP.

MANY OF THESE LOCAL PROJECTS HAVE A MIX OF FUNDS.

THEY MAY BE LOCAL MAYORS AND CITIES, CERTAINLY, CAN FUND PARKS AND OPEN SPACE.

BUT REMEMBER, HOW MANY, HOW MUCH PUBLIC LAND EXISTS IN OUR COUNTRY?

THIS IS OFTEN A PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES, COUNTIES, STATES, AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, TO REALLY, I THINK, HOPEFULLY, CREATE LANDSCAPES AND TRAILS AND RIVER CORRIDORS, CLEAN WATER, CLEAN AIR, ALL THE THINGS THAT COME WITH CONSERVATION FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES, OF COURSE, IS WHAT IS SOMETIMES RECEIVED AS A TENSION BETWEEN PRESERVING PUBLIC LANDS AND CONSERVING IT, VERSUS RESOURCE EXTRACTION, I WILL CALL IT.

RATHER IT IS TAKING OUT OIL, LOGGING, AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION NOW SEEMS TO WANT TO DO A LOT MORE LOGGING AND OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION ON PUBLIC LANDS.

CAN YOU MAKE THAT COMPATIBLE, OR IS THAT AN ABSOLUTE CONFLICT?

>> YEAH, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS A FAIRLY NUANCED QUESTION, AND A FAIRLY NUANCED ANSWER.

AND I THINK I WOULD, AGAIN, SAY IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER OR NOT LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND PLACES WHERE THAT ACTIVITY MIGHT OCCUR ARE INVOLVED IN THOSE ACTIVITIES.

I LIVE IN COLORADO, WESTERN COLORADO.

THAT IS 80% PUBLIC LANDS.

WE ARE SURROUNDED BY NATIONAL FOREST, 14,000 FOOT PEAKS.

IT IS RICHES OF PUBLIC LANDS.

WE ARE ALWAYS WAITING FOR THE NEXT WILDFIRE.

PARTICULARLY IN THE DRYER AND DRYER SEASONS.

SO IF THERE IS A WAY TO WORK WITH LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO DO FIRE MITIGATION, TO HAVE FORESTRY ACTIVITY THAT SENDS THOSE FORESTS AND MAKE THEM SAFER, BUT ALSO PROTECTS THE ECOLOGY AND THE BEAUTY OF THOSE PARTICULAR PLACES, THERE PROBABLY ARE SOME WIN WIN.

WHAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, AND CERTAINLY WOULD CONCERN ME AND TRUST REPUBLIC LAND IS ANY FORM OF HAIRCUTTING.

ANYTHING THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY BRING A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE INTO SMALLER, LOCAL, RURAL COMMUNITIES, AND TAKE THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT OUT OF THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IF IT HELPS SUPPORT THOSE COMMUNITIES, IF IT WORKS WITH LOCAL TRIBES, IN PARTICULAR, TPL HAS DONE A LOT OF PROJECTS WITH LOCAL TRIBES.

THERE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE IN MAINE .

THAT IS A PARTNERSHIP WITH THE LOCAL TRIBE, THAT THE FORESTRY ACTIVITY.

IT MAINTAINS OUTDOOR ACTIVITY.

SO THERE ARE SOME EXAM IS, AS LONG AS IT IS DONE IN COLLABORATION WITH LOCAL COMMUNITIES, WITH LOCAL LAND MANAGERS, THAT I THINK YOU CAN WORK.

>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE ONE, OF THE TRUST FOR PUBLIC LAND HELPING FORM COLLABORATION BETWEEN PRESERVATION, BUT ALSO THE USE OF LANDS, FOR LOGGING, OIL, GAS, WHATEVER NEEDS TO BE.

>> SURE, IN THE NEWS TODAY, AND CERTAINLY IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK IS HOUSING.

THAT'S A REALLY BIG QUESTION.

AGAIN, I LIVE IN RURAL COLORADO IN A PLACE WHERE PUBLIC LANDS ARE ABUNDANT.

AND PLACES TO PUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING ARE NOT.

MONTANA IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.

WE HAVE A PARK PROJECT IN BOZEMAN, MONTANA THAT WE WORKED ON.

IT WAS 60 ACRES.

CREATED A LOCAL PARK.

AND EIGHT ACRES WERE CARVED OFF HER AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR THAT COMMUNITY.

THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY EFFORTS THAT CAN WORK.

PARTICULARLY IF A LOCAL VOTER IS VOTING ON SOMETHING THAT THEY KNOW WILL DO BOTH.

I THINK VERY FEW OF US LIKE A VERY TOP-DOWN APPROACH, THAT MAYBE DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE LOCAL NUANCES OF LOCAL PARTNERSHIPS WE KNOW BEST IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE KNOW WHAT BEST CAN WORK.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE COLLABORATED FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND IF WE START THERE I THINK SOME OF THE ANSWERS CAN EMERGE.

>> YOU JUST REFERRED TO THE IDEA THAT PUBLIC, THAT HOUSING COULD BE BUILT ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SOLVE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS THAT ANNOUNCEMENT TOGETHER WITH, I THINK IT WAS THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR AND THE SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT AND THE TRUMPET RESTRICTION, SAYING THEY WERE GOING TO DO THAT.

ARE YOU GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN SEEING IF THIS CAN WORK, AND DO YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA?

>> WELL, I HOPE WE ARE INVITED TO THE TABLE.

I THINK THE BEST MINDS AND A WHOLE HOST OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO THAT CONVERSATION WILL MAKE FOR BETTER DECISIONS.

AND CERTAINLY, I DON'T THINK THERE ARE ABSOLUTES AROUND THIS.

I DON'T THINK THAT I OR TRUST REPUBLIC LAND WOULD SUPPORT THE NOTION THAT ACROSS-THE-BOARD, YOU THINK ABOUT PUBLIC LANDS FOR COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY OR FOR EXTRACTION OR FOR HOUSING.

THERE MAY BE EXAMPLES WHERE THAT COULD WORK.

AND REMEMBER, ONLY ABOUT 7% OF DOUBLE GLANDS IN THIS COUNTRY SORT OF RESIDE NEAR BIG URBAN AREAS, WHERE HOUSING IS IN THE GREATEST SITUATION OF A CRUNCH.

SO IT'S NOT QUITE THAT EASY, AND THERE ARE PROBABLY SOME OPPORTUNITIES AND SOME APPROACHES, AS I SAID EARLIER, AS LONG AS THAT IS DONE IN AN ENGAGING WAY, INCLUSIVE TO THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

IT BRINGS THE EXPERTS TOGETHER AND IS NOT JUST SOME ACROSS-THE- BOARD STATEMENT, THAT WE ARE GOING TO TURN PUBLIC LANDS INTO EITHER COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES OR TO SOLVE ALL THEIR PROBLEMS.

IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OPTIMIZE, IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE CREATIVE SOLUTIONS.

I THINK THEY ARE THERE, AND I HOPE THAT TRUST REPUBLIC LAND IS AT THE TABLE WHEN THOSE QUESTIONS ARE ASKED.

>> HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT THE CUTS THAT SEEM TO BE IMPENDING FOR THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE AND OTHER RELATED AGENCIES, AND WHAT ARE THE DANGERS IF THOSE GO THROUGH?

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE WORRIED.

I THINK WE JOINED LOTS OF OTHER NONPROFIT, NGOS, GOVERNMENT AGENCIES THAT ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THESE CUTS.

WE ARE GOING INTO THE VERY HEAVY SEASON, SPRING BREAK AND SUMMER VACATIONS, WHERE PEOPLE WILL BE OUT.

I JUST CAME ACROSS WASHINGTON, D.C., AND YOU CAN SEE THE BUDS OF THE CHERRY BLOSSOMS STARTING TO COME OUT.

THE TRAFFIC IS HEAVY.

THAT ENTIRE WASHINGTON MALL OUR PUBLIC LANDS.

THOSE ARE PUBLIC SPACES.

THOSE ARE PLACES THAT TELL OUR HISTORY IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND TO NOT STAFF THEM ADEQUATELY WOULD, FRANKLY, BE SORT OF AN UNFORTUNATE SITUATION, JUST FROM BASIC ECONOMICS.

THEY ARE HUGE ECONOMIC DRIVERS.

THEY ARE PLACES THEY CREATE MEMORIES FOR FAMILIES FOR GENERATIONS.

AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE ACCESSIBLE.

WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE CARED FOR.

WE'VE SEEN MASSIVE WILDFIRES IN CALIFORNIA.

WE'VE SEEN FLOODING IN FLORIDA, NORTH CAROLINA, RELEASING ALL THESE NATURAL DISASTERS.

IN ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE PUBLIC LANDS DO IS THEY BUFFER SOME OF THOSE REALLY EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS.

AND THE MORE WE TAKE CARE OF THEM, THE MORE COMMUNITIES WILL BE BUFFERED FROM THOSE EXTREME EVENTS.

>> DR. CARRIE HAUSER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU ALL.

>> A REMINDER THAT WE ALL HAVE A DUTY OF CARE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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