>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> UKRAINE'S SUPPORT LAGS IN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE, POLAND'S NEW GOVERNMENT VOWS TO RALLY THE WEST.

FOREIGN MINISTER RADEK SIKORSKI JOINS ME.

>>> THEN, CANDIDATE JOE BIDEN RETURNS TO SOUTH CAROLINA, HOPING TO RECHARGE BLACK VOTER SUPPORT FOR 2024.

WE HEAR ABOUT THIS TRIP.

>>> AND ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST CELEBRATED WRITERS CALLS FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

WALTER ISAACSON TALKS WAR, ANTI-SEMITISM, AND VENGEANCE WITH TONY KUSHNER.

>>> AND THEN BOBI WINE'S OPPOSITION TO UGANDA'S FOREVER PRESIDENT.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS A NEW YEAR IN UKRAINE, AND ALREADY, THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOFTENING U.S. SUPPORT ARE BEING FELT.

"THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTS KYIV IS RUNNING OUT OF AMMUNITION, AS THE PIPELINE OF MONEY AND MATERIAL FROM WASHINGTON RUNS DRY.

THE PAIN IS BEING FELT FROM THE FRONT LINES TO UKRAINE'S CITIES, WHERE 11 CIVILIANS, INCLUDING FIVE CHILDREN, WERE KILLED IN MISSILE STRIKES IN EASTERN UKRAINE THIS WEEKEND.

BUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY REMAINS DEFIANT, AS CORRESPONDENT FRED PLEITGEN REPORTS FROM UKRAINE.

>> TO BRING UKRAINE TO ITS KNEES WITH AIR STRIKES, LARGE-SCALE ATTACKS, SPECIAL COMBINED ATTACKS AIMED AT OVERLOADING OUR AIR DEFENSE, AND STRIKING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> Reporter: UKRAINE SAYS RUSSIA HAS STEPPED UP ATTACKS BOTH ON THE GROUND AND IN THE AIR IN THE PAST WEEKS, KILLING NEARLY 120 CIVILIANS AND WOUNDING ALMOST 500 MORE SINCE DECEMBER 29th, ACCORDING TO THE U.N.

THE U.S. CLAIMS RUSSIA HAS EVEN USED MISSILES PROCURED FROM NORTH KOREA TO ATTACK KHARKIV IN NORTHEASTERN UKRAINE.

MOSCOW HASN'T COMMENTED SO FAR, AND UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES INVESTIGATING THE WRECKAGE SAY THEY HAVEN'T YET COME TO A FINAL CONCLUSION ABOUT THE MISSILES' OR GIN.

MOST LIKELY, THIS MISSILE WAS EITHER SUPPLIED BY NORTH KOREA OR PRODUCED RECENTLY USING BLUEPRINTS AND TECHNOLOGY SUPPLIED BY RUSSIA TO THIRD COUNTRIES OR TO NORTH KOREA, THIS OFFICIAL SAYS.

RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN CELEBRATING ORTHODOX CHRISTMAS, AS HE ESCALATES HIS ASSAULT AGAINST UKRAINE.

MEETING WITH FAMILIES OF RUSSIAN SOLDIERS KILLED ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND VOWING TO SUPPORT THE LOVED ONES OF ALL THOSE HE SENDS TO THE WAR ZONE.

"YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF OUR MEN, OUR COURAGEOUS, HEROIC GUYS, RUSSIAN WARRIORS, EVEN NOW, ON THIS HOLIDAY, DEFEND THE INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY WITH ARMS IN HAND," HE SAYS.

"I WANT TO ASSURE YOU, WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE YOUR BACK."

>> THAT WAS CORRESPONDENT FRED PLEITGEN IN KYIV.

POLAND IS ALSO BEING IMPACTED, A CRITICAL NATO ALLY.

JUST LAST WEEK, FRIGHTER JETS SCRAMBLED AFTER WARSAW REPORTED A RUSSIAN MISSILE ENTERED POLISH AIR SPACE, HEADED TO UKRAINE.

A NEW GOVERNMENT THERE, HEADED BY THE FORMER EUROPEAN COUNCIL PRESIDENT DONALD TUSK, IS PUSHING FOR A FULL MOBILIZATION OF THE FREE WORLD TO HELP UKRAINE FEND OFF RUSSIA.

RADEK SIKORSKI IS THE NEW FOREIGN MINISTER, AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WARSAW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, FOREIGN MINISTER.

WELL, YOU'RE THE FOREIGN MINISTER AGAIN, I SHOULD SAY.

SO, CONGRATULATIONS -- >> HELLO, CHRISCHRISTIANE.

>> WHAT ARE YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT GOING TO DO TO, AS YOUR PRIME MINISTER SAYS, RALLY THE WEST?

YOU MUST, I GUESS, FEEL THE SHOCK AND THE REALITY OF THIS PIPELINE THAT'S DRYING UP NOW FOR KYIV.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY HOW GRATEFUL WE HAVE TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND PERSONALLY, TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, FOR RALLYING AROUND UKRAINE IN HER HOUR OF NEED.

WE RALLIED AROUND THE U.S., POLAND SENT A BRIGADE TO IRAQ, A BRIGADE TO AFGHANISTAN, AND NOW WE ARE HOLDING OFF AN AGGRESSIVE DICTATOR, WHO IS BENT ON RECREATING A EUROPEAN EMPIRE, A CONCEPT WHOSE TIME HAS PASSED, AND UKRAINE IS THE INTERNATIONALLY VICTIM, RECOGNIZED BY THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF PUTIN CONQUERING UKRAINE WOULD BE CATASTROPHIC.

FIRST OF ALL, OF COURSE, FOR UKRAINE, BUT ALSO FOR HER NEIGHBORS, FOR EUROPE, AND -- THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF AMERICAN ALLIANCES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN TO KYIV, THE UNITED STATES IS PRESENT NOW MILITARILY IN POLAND.

THE UKRAINIANS NEED TO BE GIVEN THE TOOLS TO DO THE JOB, AND THEY'RE DOING THE JOB EXTREMELY WELL.

FOR A FEW PERCENT OF ANNUAL U.S. DEFENSE BUDGET, THEY'VE ALREADY DESTROYED HALF THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

THE COST OF DETERRING PUTIN AFTER HE CON KEQUERS UKRAINE WOULD BE MUCH, MUCH HIGHER THAN THE COST OF KEEPING THE UKRAINIAN SUPPLIED NOW.

SO, I URGE U.S.

LAWMAKERS TO PASS THE LAW THAT WOULD ENABLE THEM TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

>> SO, FOREIGN MINISTER, IT'S NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY THE BIGGEST BACKER, I GUESS, BUT IT'S ALSO EUROPE, THE PROMISED BILLIONS THAT EU HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE, HAVE NOT MATERIALIZED.

SO, YOU JUST WERE THERE RECENTLY, AND I WONDER, YOU SEE HOW PUTIN IS REACTING, HE JUST LOOKS MUCH MORE EMBOLDENED IN PUBLIC LIFE, YOU CAN SEE ON THE MAP, YOU KNOW, THE PERCENTAGE INCREASES THEY'RE MAKING IN VARIOUS AREAS, THEY TOOK BACK AN IMPORTANT SYMBOLIC, ANYWAY, TOWN, NOT LONG AGO.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT OF UKRAINE?

ARE THEY -- HOW WORRIED ARE THEY?

>> THE UKRAINIANS ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE ENTITLED TO FEEL TIRED BY THIS WAR, BECAUSE THEY ARE DYING AND THEIR CITIES ARE BEING BOMBED, BUT ON CONTRIBUTIONS, LET'S REMEMBER THAT IF YOU COMPUTE THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF EU INSTITUTIONS AND MEMBER STATES, WHICH IS HOW YOU SHOULD COUNT IT, THE U.S. AND EUROPEAN CONTRIBUTIONS ARE ABOUT THE SAME, ABOUT $75 BILLION EACH.

AND ACTUALLY, POLAND, IF YOU COUNT THE COST OF HELPING UKRAINIAN REFUGEES, POLAND IS NUMBER ONE IN CONTRIBUTIONS ON A PER CAPITA BASIS, IN PROPORTION TO GDP.

AND EVEN WITHOUT THAT, WE ARE NUMBER THREE OR FIVE.

SO, A LOT IS BEING DONE BY EUROPE, BUT OF COURSE, ON THE MILITARY SIDE, THE U.S. IS ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE, AND THAT'S WHY UKRAINE NEEDS THIS PACKAGE OF AMERICAN HELP, AND I HOPE THAT BOTH PARTIES IN THE U.S. CONGRESS SUPPORT IT.

>> AND WE'VE BEEN READING A LOT, WE HAVE OUR REPORTERS THERE IN THE EAST AND ELSEWHERE IN UKRAINE, THEY GET SOME ACCESS, AND WE SEE SO MANY MORE INJURIES, SO MANY MORE DEATHS FROM THE FRONT LINES.

WE HEAR, YOU KNOW, FROM SOLDIERS AND OTHERS WHO ARE TRYING THEIR BEST UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, WHO, YOU KNOW, YES, THEY'RE STILL AT IT, BUT MORALE IS SUFFERING, IF THEY DON'T HAVE WHAT THEY NEED TO ACTUALLY RAPPEL THIS INVASION.

WHAT -- WHAT SORT OF ATMOSPHERE DID YOU PICK UP WHEN YOU WERE WITH THE PRESIDENT, WHEN YOU WERE -- I GUESS YOU SPOKE, PROBABLY, TO SOME OF THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY LEADERS, AS WELL, BECAUSE THERE WAS SUCH A CAN-DO FEELING, EVEN A YEAR AGO, THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE AS PROMINENT RIGHT NOW.

>> OF COURSE.

WARS ALWAYS GO THROUGH THEIR UPS AND DOWNS.

THE UKRAINIANS HAVE RECONQUERED 50% OF THE TERRITORY THAT THE RUSSIANS ORIGINALLY TOOK FROM THEM.

AND THIS IS NOT A STORY OF SUCCESS BY THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

THEY WERE SO COCKY AS TO THINK THEY COULD CONQUER UKRAINE IN THREE DAYS, AND HERE WE ARE, ALMOST TWO YEARS.

THEY'VE TAKEN JUST A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY IN THE SOUTH.

BUT UKRAINE NEEDS THE AMMUNITION.

YOU CANNOT FIGHT AN INVADER WITH BARE ARMS.

AND WE SHOULD SUPPLY THEM, BECAUSE THEY, YOU KNOW, IF THEIR SACRIFICE IS IN VAIN, THEN WE WILL HAVE TO DETER PUTIN OURSELVES, AND IT'S GOING TO BE OUR SOLDIERS, INCLUDING AMERICAN SOLDIERS, WHO ARE ALREADY HERE, WHO MIGHT HAVE TO BE COMMITTED.

SO, IT'S -- IN EVERY WAY, IN OUR INTEREST, TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS DEFEND THEIR LAND.

BUT TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE, I WAS TOLD, 8 TO 1, IN ARTILLERY, IN THE NUMBER OF SHELLS.

THAT ARE -- THAT ARE AIMED AT BOTH SIDES.

AND, OF COURSE, THERE ARE -- THEY ARE SHOOTING AT CITIES WITH AERIAL WEAPONS, IMPRECISE MUSICIANS, WHICH MEANS IT IS GUARANTEED THAT THEY HIT CIVILIAN TARGETS.

PRESIDENT PUTIN, AS YOU KNOW, IS INDICTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT FOR, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, STEALING CHILDREN FROM UKRAINE.

I NEVER THOUGHT THAT I WOULD LIVE IN A EUROPE IN WHICH A MEMBER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL OF THE U.N. IS CREDIBLY ACCUSED OF STEALING THEIR NEIGHBOR'S CHILDREN.

THIS IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, AND I'M GLAD THAT WE ARE IN AN ALLIANCE THAT SEEKS TO PREVENT IT.

BUT WE NEED TO DO THE PRACTICAL THING, TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS.

>> AND ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR, FORMER CENTCOM COMMANDER GENERAL PETRAEUS TOLD ME THAT IF PUTIN WINS IN UKRAINE, HE WON'T STOP THERE.

AND YOU PROBABLY HEARD SOME OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH, REALLY A VERY, VERY PASSIONATE SPEECH ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF -- OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD ON DEMOCRACY.

HE'S OBVIOUSLY TALKING ABOUT HIS OWN OPPONENT IN THE UPCOMING PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

BUT I GUESS YOUR NEW GOVERNMENT HAS ALSO COME IN TO TRY TO DISENTANGLE YOUR COUNTRY FROM THE FORCES OF POPULISM THAT HAVE BEEN, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, GOVERNING FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

WHAT ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO TO BOLSTER YOUR DEMOCRACY AND IS THAT -- HOW -- CAN YOU DO IT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE CHALLENGES, AS DO YOU.

WE NEED TO RESTORE CIVIL SERVICE, WE NEED TO RESTORE INDEPENDENCE AND VERACITY TO PUBLIC MEDIA, WE NEED TO RESTORE THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE JUDICIARY, BUT WE'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH ALL THAT.

WHAT WE ALSO NEED, ABOVE ALL, IS PHYSICAL SECURITY.

YOU KNOW, POLAND IS LOCATED ON A WIDE OPEN PLAIN, AND THERE ARE HOSTILE TROOPS 250 KILOMETERS FROM WHERE I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, IN BELARUS, WHICH HAS ALMOST BEEN SWOLLEN UP BY RUSSIA, CERTAINLY IN THE MILITARY FIELD.

WHAT'S AT STAKE IN UKRAINE IS THE PRINCIPLE OF NOT CHANGING BORDERS BY FORCE.

BUT IT'S ALSO THE CREDIBILITY OF THE NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION AND OF THE UNITED STATES, TOO.

AND IT CAN BE DONE TO BOLSTER UKRAINE, TO BOLSTER THE MORALE OF THE WEST, AND OF THE FORCES OF DEMOCRACY, AND OF -- OF CONSTITUTIONALITY.

THIS CAN BE DONE AT A VERY SMALL COST, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, AND REMEMBER, THERE IS ALSO THE PRACTICAL ELEMENT.

WE ARE TESTING THE WEAPONS THAT ARE BEING USED TO DEFEND UKRAINIAN CITIES, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ALGORITHMS OF PATRIOT MISSILES, AND YOUR EQUIPMENT IS ACTUALLY PROVING TO BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THE RUSSIAN EQUIPMENT, AND I'M TOLD $90 BILLION OF NEW DEFENSE CONTRACTS HAVE ALREADY BEEN PLACED IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE THE START OF THIS WAR.

SO, ON ALL THOSE COUNTS, WE NEED UKRAINIANS TO WIN THIS, WITH OUR SUPPORT.

AND THE U.S. SUPPORT IS INDISPENSABLE.

>> AND JUST A LAST QUESTION, I MENTIONED THAT APPARENTLY A RUSSIAN MISSILE PASSED THROUGH YOUR TERRITORY ON ITS WAY TO UKRAINE AND ALSO THAT, I THINK, POLAND HAS CAUGHT AND CONVICTED SEVERAL PRO-RUSSIAN COLLABORATORS OR WHOEVER THEY MIGHT BE, OPERATING ON YOUR TERRITORY AGAINST UKRAINE.

ARE YOU AFRAID THAT THIS IS ON ITS WAY TO SPILLING OVER THE BORDERS AND INTO NATO COUNTRIES?

>> WELL, IT'S A FULL SPECTRUM INTERFERENCE.

RUSSIA IS CONDUCTING A HYBRID WAR AGAINST MANY COUNTRIES IN EUROPE, HAS INTERFERED IN THE BREXIT REFERENDUM, IN ELECTION CAMPAIGNS IN FRANCE, IN POLAND, IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE TRIED TO GIVE RUSSIA A CHOICE TO BECOME A NORMAL NATION STATE, RUSSIA WAS INVITED INTO THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE, INTO THE G7, INTO VARIOUS WESTERN INSTITUTIONS.

INSTEAD, IT CHOSE THE PATH OF REBUILDING EMPIRE AND OF AGGRESSION AGAINST ITS NEIGHBORS, AND THAT CANNOT PASS.

AND, YES, IT'S NOT COMFORTABLE TO BE A FRONT LINE STATE, AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME A RUSSIAN MISSILE HAS ENTERED POLISH TERRITORY.

ONE OF THOSE RUSSIAN MISSILES ACTUALLY LANDED 10 KILOMETERS FROM MY OWN HOUSE.

YES, WE NEED STRENGTHENING OUR AIR DEFENSES, WE ARE BUYING AMERICAN SYSTEMS TO DO SO.

BUT THE BEST INSURANCE FOR EUROPE IS FOR UKRAINE TO WIN THIS, AND FOR RUSSIA TO -- TO REVISE ITS NATIONAL IDEOLOGY TO ACCEPT THAT THE AGE OF EUROPEAN EMPIRES IS GONE AND IS NOT COMING BACK.

>> RADEK SIKORSKI, FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM WARSAW.

>>> NOW, U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN SPEAKING IN CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA, A STATE THAT WAS CRITICAL TO TURNING AROUND HIS FLAGGING CAMPAIGN IN 2020.

NOW, A CRUCIAL STOP ON HIS ROAD TO RE-ELECTION THIS YEAR.

HE SPOKE AT THE MOTHER EMANUEL AME CHURCH, THE SITE OF A RACIST MASSACRE OF BLACK WORSHIPPERS IN 2015.

AS HE HARKENED BACK TO THAT DAY, CONDEMNING WHAT HE CALLED THE POISON OF WHITE SUPREMACY, BIDEN WAS INTERRUPTED BY A FEW PROTESTERS CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

HE HEARD THEM OUT, SAYING, "I UNDERSTAND THE PASSION AND I'VE BEEN QUIETLY WORKING WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO SIGNIFICANTLY GET OUT OF GAZA."

SO, WITH SOUTH CAROLINA'S FIRST IN THE NATION DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY COMING UP ON FEBRUARY 3rd, CANDIDATE BIDEN IS COUNTING ON A STRONG SHOW OF SUPPORT FROM BLACK VOTERS, AMID WARNING SIGNS THAT SUPPORT MAY BE SLIPPING.

SO, LET'S BRING IN OUR SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST JOHN AVLON, JOINING US FROM NEW YORK.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

>> YOU, TOO.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MUCH AT STAKE, AS THIS NEW YEAR STARTS, AS WE'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT UKRAINE, AND THE BIGGER FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, AND I WAS INTERESTED THAT BIDEN COUCHED THE BEGINNING OF HIS SPEECH AS A FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE SPEECH, AND THEN WE'LL ASK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE IMPACT OF GOING TO SOUTH CAROLINA.

>> WELL, MOTHER EMANUEL CHURCH IS LESS THAN A MILE FROM MY PARENTS' HOUSE IN CHARLESTON.

AND SO, IT'S AN AREA I KNOW WELL, AND IT IS REALLY BECOME A SACRED CIVIC SPACE BECAUSE OF THE MASSACRE THAT OCCURRED THERE.

AND WHAT A RECKONING THAT WAS.

IT WAS, I THINK, A RELATIVELY RENEWAL OF AN OLD IDEA THAT WE'VE DEBATED IN THE UNITED STATES, OFTEN WITH VIOLENCE, UNFORTUNATELY, WHICH IS THE RESISTANCE THAT EXISTS TO A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

THAT CHARACTERIZED THE RUNUP TO THE CIVIL WAR, CERTAINLY, BUT ESPECIALLY RECONSTRUCTION, AND THE VIOLENCE AROUND OVERTURNING JIM CROW.

AND WE SAW IT AT MOTHER EMANUEL THAT DAY.

AND WE SEE IT IN MORE BENIGN AND POLITICIZED FORMS TO THIS DAY.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS SPEAKING TO.

IT'S A COMPANION TO HIS SPEECH AT VALLEY FORGE JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, KICKING OFF HIS CAMPAIGN, WHERE HE SAID, THIS IS ABOUT DEFENDING DEMOCRACY.

I THINK THIS PUTS A FINER POINT ON IT.

ONE OF THE GREAT OBSTACLES TO THE FULFILLMENT OF DEMOCRACY'S IDEAL IN THE UNITED STATES IS WHITE SUPREMACY, IS WHITE NATIONALISM, IS, IN SOME CASES, CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM, WHEN IT IS COMBINED WITH A RACIAL ANIMUS, AS WE'VE SEEN TOO MANY TIMES.

AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LISTEN CAREFULLY TO HEAR THOSE STRAINS.

IF YOU KNOW YOUR HISTORY, IF YOU'RE WILLING TO CONFRONT IT, CLEARLY, THEN ALL BECOMES MORE EVIDENT.

>> YOU KNOW, JOHN, HE CLEARLY IN HIS CAMPAIGN KNOWS THE HISTORY, VALLEY FORGE WAS AN IMPORTANT TURNING POINT IN THE WAR FOR PENNSYLVANIA.

>> YEAH.

>> AS YOU SAY, SOUTH CAROLINA, A VERY IMPORTANT PLACE IN THE WHOLE CIVIL RIGHTS STRUGGLE AND ALSO IN THAT, YOU KNOW, POISONOUS WHITE SUPREMACY.

DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, THAT LIKE IT DID LAST TIME, IT WILL JUMP-START WHAT CRITICS ARE CALLING A FLAGGING CAMPAIGN ALREADY?

>> WELL, THE POLLS SHOW THAT HIS CAMPAIGN IS FLAGGING.

THAT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF CRITICS.

I DO -- I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT, THOUGH, THAT IN THE 2022 MIDTERMS, THERE WERE A LOT OF PUNDITS AND FOLKS WHO SAID THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PIVOT TO TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY WAS A SURE-FIRE LOSER, THAT HE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE INFLATION, ECONOMY, KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES, THAT ARE WHERE PEOPLE LIVE INDEED.

BUT HE TOOK THAT RISK, CALCULATED RISK AND WAS REWARDED FOR IT, EXIT POLLS SHOW.

THERE WAS NO RED WAVE, AS HAD BEEN OFTEN PREDICTED.

DEMOCRATS DID BETTER THAN EXPECTED.

AND DEMOCRATS HAVE OUTPERFORMED EXPECTATIONS IN POLLS IN EVERY ELECTION SINCE.

PARTICULARLY SPECIAL ELECTIONS.

I THINK THE PROBLEM FOR THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN ISN'T JUST PERCEPTIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S AGE AND VIGOR.

IT IS FLAGGING SUPPORT AMONG AFRICAN AMERICANS, HISPANIC VOTERS, AND EVEN YOUNGER VOTERS.

THE CAMPAIGN IS BETTING THOSE FOLKS WILL COME ROUND WHEN WE GET TO NOVEMBER 2024, PARTICULARLY IF THE NOMINEE IS DONALD TRUMP.

BUT GIVEN THAT THIS IS AN ELECTION IN WHICH DEMOCRACY SEEMS TO HANG IN THE BALANCE, THIS ALL FEELS TO MANY DEMOCRATS AND CLOSE OBSERVERS LIKE A RISKY BET, GIVEN THAT THE BIDEN TEAM SEEMS TO BE ON THE BACK FOOT.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN IOWA NEXT WEEK.

NEW HAMPSHIRE AFTER THAT, WHERE THE REPUBLICANS CAN WREST CONTROL OF THEIR PARTY FROM TRUMPISM, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO DO IS FORM A BROADER COALITION THAT BRINGS IN DISAFFECTED REPUBLICANS AND INDEPENDENTS, AS WELL AS DEMOCRATS AND THEIR BASE.

THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO DO THAT, BUT THEY'RE JUST GETTING STARTED, AND IT'S ALWAYS LATER THAN YOU THINK IN POLITICS.

>> I WANT TO PLAY JUST A LITTLE BIT OF THE SPEECH.

WE'VE CHOSEN A SMALL SOUND BYTE FROM HIS SPEECH IN WHICH HE'S FOCUSING ON THE NOTION OF TRUTH.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> THE TRUTH IS UNDER ASSAULT IN AMERICA.

AS A CONSEQUENCE, SO IS OUR FREEDOM, OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR VERY COUNTRY, BECAUSE WITHOUT THE TRUTH, THERE'S NO LIGHT.

WITHOUT LIGHT, THERE'S NO PATH FROM THIS DARKNESS.

>> JOHN, IT'S -- HE NEVER MENTIONED, I DON'T THINK HE MENTIONED TRUMP'S NAME, AT LEAST WHAT I COULD HEAR, BUT HE TALKS ABOUT HOW THE WHOLE STORY OF THE 2020 ELECTION IS ONE THAT IS -- IS ABSOLUTELY, YOU KNOW, ONE THAT IS COATED IN LIES BY DONALD TRUMP, AND THEY REFUSE TO SEE THAT IT WAS A LEGITIMATE ELECTION, THEY PORTRAY THEMSELVES AS VICTIMS, WE HEAR RIGHT NOW THAT THERE'S A PODCAST THAT'S JUST HAPPENED WITH MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY, SHE'S SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE'S WORRIED, YOU KNOW, SICK ABOUT THE 2024 RESULT, THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS HER UP AT NIGHT.

AND YET, TRUMP CONTINUES, YOU KNOW, POSTING THESE LIES ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IS THERE A WAY TO BREAK OUT OF THAT?

AND WHAT -- YOU KNOW, WHAT RESPONSIBILITY DO WE ALL HAVE AS -- AS THE INTERMEDIARIES BETWEEN A CANDIDATE AND THE PUBLIC?

>> WE HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL RESPONSIBILITY.

AND I THINK IT'S A CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY THAT CONNECTS JOURNALISTS, BUT ALSO CITIZENS.

THERE IS AN ASSAULT ON TRUTH THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

IT IS FOMENTED AND CRYSTALLIZED OFTEN BY DONALD TRUMP'S LIES, AND THEY NEED TO BE CALLED THAT, BUT THEY'RE AMPLIFIED VIA SOCIAL MEDIA.

WHICH AMPLIFIES THE CONSPIRACY THEORIST VERSION OF EVENTS, THE MOST CONFRONTATIONAL VERSION OF EVENTS, AMPLIFIES PEOPLE WHO PLAY TO THE BASE.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE STILL GETTING OUR HANDS AROUND.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE DAYS OF GATEKEEPERS AND WALTER CRON CITE SAYING THAT'S THE WAY IT IS A LONG GONE, BUT THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO STRENGTHEN GUARDRAILS AROUND OUR DEMOCRACY.

GUARDRAILS AROUND DEMOCRATIC NORMS.

WE NEED TO CALL OUT LIES FOR WHAT THEY ARE, AS WE RECOGNIZE THAT TRUMP AND THE DRIFT TOWARDS HYPER PARTISAN MEDIA HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN SELLINGOUT RIGHT LIES TO PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THAT.

NEW POLLS EVERY DAY, CHRISTIANE, IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, YOU KNOW, THAT A THIRD OF REPUBLICANS BELIEVE JANUARY 6th WAS AN INSIDE JOB, THAT'S A LIE.

THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS NOT LEGITIMATELY ELECTED.

THAT'S A LIE.

AND LEADING REPUBLICANS ACTING AS HAND MAIDENS TO DONALD TRUMP AND SUPPORTING HIS CAMPAIGN BEFORE A SINGLE REPUBLICAN IS VOTED, DESPITE THE FACT THAT NAY KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP LIES ABOUT THOSE THINGS AND SO MANY OTHERS.

AS DONALD TRUMP WAS SAID TO HAVE SAID WHEN THE HOUSE WHIP TOM EMMER CAME AROUND TO ENDORSING HIM, AFTER TRUMP SCUTTLED HIS OWN BID TO BECOME SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, THEY ALWAYS TAKE THE KNEE.

AND SO, I THINK THAT'S A CORRUPTION WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN PARTICULAR, THAT THEY NEED TO CONFRONT.

BUT WE NEED TO SHINE A LIGHT ON THE HYPOCRISY THAT EXISTS BETWEEN WHAT SO MANY OF THOSE POLITICIANS SAY IN PUBLIC AND WHAT THEY SAY IN PRIVATE.

THIS IS A DANGEROUS MOMENT FOR DEMOCRACY.

THAT REQUIRES RECOGNIING COMMON FACTS.

>> LET ME JUST PLAY FOR YOU WHAT ONE OF HIS BIGGEST ALLIES, CONGRESSMAN JIM CLYBURN, OF SOUTH CAROLINA, HAS SAID.

>> I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND WHAT IT HAS DONE.

MY PROBLEM IS, WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BREAK THROUGH THAT MAGA WALL IN ORDER TO GET TO PEOPLE EXACTLY WHAT THIS PRESIDENT HAS DONE.

>> SO, JOHN, YOU'VE BEEN AN ADVISER BEFORE.

WHAT DO THEY NEED TO DO TO BREAK THROUGH?

BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS, WHETHER IT'S THE ECONOMY, INFLATION COMING DOWN, UNEMPLOYMENT DOWN, YOU KNOW, PRICES DOWN.

IT'S -- THE RECORD IS PRETTY GOOD, IF YOU LOOK AT IT OBJECTIVELY.

>> YES, LOOK, PRESIDENT BIDEN, IF YOU LOOK AT IT OBJECTIVELY, HAS BEEN AN EFFECTIVE PRESIDENT.

HE'S BEEN FAR FROM PERFECT, BUT PERFECT IS NEVER ON THE MENU.

I THINK WHAT JIM CLYBURN IS SAY, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULDN'T BE PRESIDENT IF IT WASN'T FOR CLYBURN'S ENDORSEMENT.

IS SAYING THAT THEY HAVEN'T MESSAGES EFFECTIVELY TO MAIN STREET AMERICA.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PERSUADABLE VOTERS, REPUBLICANS, INDEPENDENTS, OBVIOUSLY, AND EVEN DISAFFECTED DEMOCRATS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO REACH THE HARD CORE THIRD OF REPUBLICANS WHO ARE SUPPORT DM DM NO MATTER WHAT.

BUT THE MESSAGING HAS BEEN LACKING.

I WROTE A COLUMN ABOUT THIS FOR CNN JUST INTO THE NEW YEAR ABOUT, ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN YOU WERE THREE YEARS AGO?

THINK ABOUT WHERE AMERICA WAS IN JANUARY 2021, REELING FROM JANUARY 6th, COVID DEATH TOLL IN THE UNITED STATES AT ITS HIGHEST LEVEL, THE ECONOMY IN SHAMBLES.

AMERICA'S IN FAR BETTER SHAPE.

BUT THE BIDEN TEAM HAS NOT BEEN SUFFICIENT IN TERMS OF OFFERS SOUND BITES AND STATISTICS THAT ARE STICKY, TO HELP JUST MAKE THAT STICK, AND DONALD TRUMP IS A VERY EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATOR THROUGH REPETITION.

HE'S A HYPE MAN.

HE'S A MARKETER.

JOE BIDEN IS NOT AT THAT LEVEL, BUT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT, AGAIN, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY, BY HAVING COMMON FACTS, AND THEY NEED TO UP THEIR GAME.

I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

>> JOHN AVLON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, AS WE MENTIONED, PRESIDENT BIDEN MENTIONED THE GAZA WAR DURING HIS SPEECH, WHERE HE SAID HE WAS WORKING TO TRY TO SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE ISRAEL'S FOOTPRINT THERE, AND THE WAR ON HAMAS CONTINUES TO REACH GRIM HEIGHTS.

SPEAKING DURING HIS LATEST TRIP TO THE REGION, THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN TODAY SAID HE IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY SORRY FOR THE ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE LOSS SUFFERED BY AL JAZEERA'S GAZA BUREAU CHIEF.

HIS SON WAS KILLED ON SUNDAY, ALONG WITH A FREELANCER.

THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES, THE IDF, CONFIRMED THAT THEY WERE KILLED IN AN AIR STRIKE, SAYING THEY WERE TARGETING A TERRORIST.

HIS TWO OTHER CHILDREN, HIS WIFE, AND HIS GRANDCHILD, WERE ALL KILLED THREE MONTHS AGO IN AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE.

AND HERE IS WHAT HE HAD TO SAY AS HE LAID HIS SON TO REST.

>> Translator: THE WORLD MUST SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND NOT WITH ISRAEL'S EYES.

IT MUST LISTEN AND WATCH ALL THAT IS HAPPENING TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WHAT HAS HAMZA DONE TO THEM?

AND WHAT HAS MY FAMILY DONE TO THEM?

WHAT HAVE CIVILIANS IN THE GAZA STRIP DONE TO THEM?

THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING.

THE WORLD IS BLINDED BY WHAT IS GOING ON IN GAZA.

>> WHILE HIMSELF WAS INJURED IN AN ATTACK JUST WEEKS AGO THAT KILLED ONE OF HIS COLLEAGUES.

AND THE SECRETARY SAYS HE IS FOCUSED ON TRYING TO PREVENT A WIDER CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

NEXT, TONY KUSHNER IS ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST CELEBRATED THEATER AND SCREENWRITERS, AND A FILM THAT HE COWROTE NEARLY 20 YEARS AGO IS GETTING A SECOND LOOK AMID THIS WAR.

STEVEN SPIELBERG'S "MUNICH."

THIS IS THE STORY OF AN ASSASSINATION OF ISRAELI OLYMPIC ATHLETES AT THE 1972 GAMES BY PALESTINIAN TERRORIST.

IT'S ALSO THE STORY OF ISRAEL'S SECRET MISSION TO HUNT DOWN AND ASSASSINATE EACH OF THOSE ASSASSINS.

IN ONE SCENE, THOUGH, ISRAELI AGENT AVNER IS FACE-TO-FACE WITH A GROUP OF PALESTINIANS.

THIS EXCHANGE WITH ALI AND THE TOPIC OF VENGEANCE HAS BEEN NOTED AS STRIKINGLY RELEVANT TODAY.

HERE'S THE CLIP.

>> YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOTHING TO BARGAIN WITH.

YOU'LL NEVER GET THE LAND BACK.

YOU'LL ALL DIE OLD MEN IN REFUGEE CAMPS.

>> WE HAVE A LOT OF CHILDREN.

THEY'LL HAVE CHILDREN.

WE CAN WAIT FOREVER.

AND IF WE NEED TO, WE CAN MAKE THE WHOLE PLANET UNSAFE FOR JEWS.

>> YOU KILL JEWS AND THE WORLD FEELS BAD FOR THEM AND THINKS THEY'RE ANIMALS.

>> THEN THE WORLD WILL SEE HOW THEY'VE MADE US INTO ANIMALS.

THEY'LL START TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONDITIONS IN OUR CAGES.

>> TONY KUSHNER JOINS WALTER ISAACSON.

>> TONY, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS, IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> IT'S BEEN THREE MONTHS SINCE THE HAMAS TERROR ATTACK ON ISRAEL, AND I JUST READ A PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT SAID THE BEST WAY TO PROCESS IT IS THROUGH THE MOVIE "MUNICH" THAT YOU WROTE, COWROTE AND SPIELBERG DIRECTED.

TELL ME HOW YOU'RE PROCESSING IT AND HOW THAT MOVIE HELPS YOU PROCESS IT.

>> WELL, I'M NOT PROCESSING IT VERY WELL, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S -- IT'S A STAGGERINGLY UPSETTING AND CONFUSING TIME.

AND VERY, VERY FRIGHTENING TIME.

I'M, YOU KNOW, FEEL SORT OF CRUSHED EVERY DAY BY HORROR AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, AT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE LIVING IN, I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT ISRAEL AND WHAT ITS ACTIONS IN GAZA HAVE DONE TO ITS INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION, TO ITS HISTORICAL REPUTATION, I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES.

I'M A BIG SUPPORTER OF JOE BIDEN, BUT I HAVE TO SAY, I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED SO FAR IN THE ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE TO THE BOMBING OF GAZA.

>> WAIT, WHY IS THAT?

BECAUSE THEY'VE NOT BEEN HARSH ENOUGH ABOUT THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES?

>> WELL, I MEAN, YEAH.

YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT STARTED OUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK MISTAKINGLY EMBRACING NETANYAHU AND SAYING WE'RE WITH YOU ALL THE WAY, AND UTTERING THESE KIND OF FAIRLY TEPID PLATITUDES ABOUT, LET'S BE CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT WE DO NEXT, BECAUSE OF COURSE EVERYONE KNEW THE MINUTE WE HEARD ABOUT THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th, THAT THE RESPONSE WAS GOING TO BE HORRENDOUS, AND THAT GAZA WAS GOING TO BE BOMBED, AND THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE GOING TO BE KILLED.

I DIDN'T IMAGINE THAT IT WOULD RISE TO THE LEVEL THAT IT'S RISEN, 22,000 PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO THE HAMAS HEALTH AUTHORITIES.

AND THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, TO SORT OF DIG IN IN A WAY THAT'S SURPRISING TO ME, BECAUSE I THINK HE'S A PROFOUNDLY DECENT GUY, AND I THINK HE LEADS OFTEN WITH HIS HEART, AND SOMETIMES THAT LEADS HIM TO DO VERY BRAVE THINGS.

AND I FEEL THAT HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH FIRMER ABOUT STOPPING THIS AND SO SOME OF THE BLOOD IS ON OUR HANDS AT THIS POINT.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT SOMETIMES THE CRITICISM OF ISRAEL, PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT'S MOTIVATED PARTLY BY ANTI-SEMITISM.

YOU'VE TRIED IN LETTERS YOU'VE WRITTEN, LAST NOVEMBER, I THINK, TO SEPARATE ANTI-SEMITISM FROM BEING ANTI-ISRAEL, BUT IS IT GETTING HARDER TO DO NOW?

>> THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE CHARGE OF ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH IS BY THE RIGHT, WHICH IS NOT A NEW THING, BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S STILL ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION, SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, CRITICISM OF ISRAEL, IS IN NO WAY ANTI-SEMITIC, IT ISN'T ANTI-JEWISH, IT ISN'T EVEN ANTI-ISRAEL.

YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI PRESS IS FULL OF INCREDIBLE, YOU KNOW, READ THE ISRAELIS, THEY ARE -- ISRAELI PRESS IS CERTAINLY FULL OF SELF-CRITICISM, AND THIS IS A TIME OF PROFOUND INTERNAL CONFLICT IN ISRAEL.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A -- IT'S NOT A COUNTRY THAT OPERATES WITH A SINGLE VOICE.

AND THERE'S A FICTION THAT'S BEEN CREATED BY THE RIGHT IN THE UNITED STATES THAT IT DOES AND THEREFORE EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES, ESPECIALLY ALL AMERICAN JEWS, HAVE TO SPEAK WITH A SINGLE VOICE OF ABSOLUTE BLIND SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL AND WHATEVER IT'S DOING, AND I THINK THIS IS A DANGER FOR ANY COUNTRY TO NOT TOLERATE DISSENT.

AND SO, IT'S NOT ANYMORE DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT STUDENTS PROTESTING AND USING THE TERM INTIFADA ARE NOT ANTI-SEMITES, INTIFADA IS NOT AN ANTI-SEMITIC TERM, AND THE DANGER TO JEWS, AND THERE IS ALWAYS DANGER TO JEWS, WE'RE A VERY SMALL MINORITY AND HAVE A VERY UNIQUE POSITION OF HAVING BEING TARGETED FOR THE LAST 2,000 YEARS.

AND SUFFERING TERRIBLE OPPRESSION AND PERSECUTION, BUT OUR -- THE DANGER TO US, I THINK, ALMOST ALWAYS COMES FROM THE RIGHT, NOT THE LEFT, AND I SEE NO DANGER TO JEWS IN PEOPLE ARGUING THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE NEED TO BE TREATED, YOU KNOW, IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS OF -- OF DECENCY AND ACCORDING TO THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND I THINK IT'S A GREAT DANGER TO JEWS FOR JEWS TO NOT SPEAK OUT IN SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT BEING JEWISH IS A TRIBAL IDENTITY, I DON'T BELIEVE.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN TRIBALISM, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS A MISTAKE.

AND JEWISH ETHNIC -- ETHICAL TEACHING DOESN'T DRAW THE LINE AT -- BETWEEN JEWS AND NON-JEW.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT CALLS FOR INTIFADA, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S NOT REALLY AN ATTACK ON JEWS, BUT DO YOU THINK IT'S NOW, ESPECIALLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, THOSE CHANTS, BECOME AN ATTACK ON JEWS, ANTI-SEMITIC?

>> WELL, LOOK, I'M -- I DON'T TEACH ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, I HAVE NOT -- I'VE BEEN VERY BUSY IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS, I HAVE NOT GONE TO COLLEGE CAMPUSES TO -- I HAVE SEEN NO EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S A HUGE INCREASE OF ATTACKS ON JEWISH STUDENTS.

I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN SOME REPORTS OF ALTERCATIONS BETWEEN JEWISH STUDENTS AND OTHER PEOPLE, BUT I DON'T SEE A GREAT DANGER, IT DOESN'T STRIKE -- >> SO, YOU'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM -- >> I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP SITTING DOWN WITH THAT CREATURE.

>> YOU'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM ON THE LEFT?

>> ANYWHERE IT APPEARS IS A CONCERN FOR ME.

IF I SEE EVIDENCE, I HAVE ALMOST ALL OF MY FRIENDS ARE ON THE LEFT, I HAVE A NUMBER OF PALESTINIAN FRIENDS, NONE OF THEM ARE ANTI-SEMITES, IF THEY WERE ANTI-SEMITES, I WOULDN'T BE FRIENDS WITH THEM AND I IMAGINE THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH ME.

THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF DANGER AGAINST ISRAEL.

THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF ANGER AGAINST THE JEWISH AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

IT IS -- I MEAN, I'M NOT MINIMIZING THE SORT OF SCARINESS OF ANGER DIRECTED AT JEWS ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME CAN FEEL LIKE IT WILL BOIL OVER VERY EASY INTO ANTI-SEMITISM, BECAUSE ANTI-SEMITISM IS SUCH A PERVASIVE THEME IN WESTERN CONSCIOUSNESS.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH GOOD WILL AND DISCERNMENT AND USING YOUR FACULTIES OF REASON, RATHER THAN EMOTION, IT'S -- IT'S EASY TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THE ANGER COMES FROM AND EASY TO ALSO SEE WHERE OUR REAL ENEMIES ARE, I MEAN, THE SPECTACLE OF ELISE STEFANIK, WHO SUPPORTS DONALD TRUMP WHOLEHEARTEDLY, WHICH MEANS SHE SUPPORTS THE REPLACEMENT THEORY, WHICH IS JUST FUNDAMENTALLY AN ANTI-SEMITIC THEORY, GETTING UP AND YELLING AT THE PRESIDENTS OF THESE THREE SCHOOLS ABOUT THEIR WEAKNESS ON ANTI-SEMITISM IS RIDICULOUS.

>> OVER THE YEARS, YOU'VE WORKED WITH STEVEN SPIELBERG.

WORKING THROUGH A LOT OF THESE ISSUES.

ESPECIALLY JEWISH IDENTITY, I THINK FROM "MUNICH" TO "THE FABLEMANS."

TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE WORKING WITH HIM AND WHAT WERE THE THEMES THAT YOU ALL WERE TRYING TO DEVELOP?

>> WELL, WE NEVER SET OUT AND TALKED ABOUT THEMES, WE JUST SORT OF LIKED EACH OTHER FROM THE FIRST TIME WE STARTED TALKING, WHICH WAS ABOUT -- I HAD PUBLISHED AN ANTHOLOGY, AND STEVEN READ IT AND CALLED ME AND SAID, I HAVE THIS MOVIE THAT I'M WORKING ON, WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY AND WRITE THE SCRIPT?

I THOUGHT THAT THE ESSAY ABOUT IT, BY THE WAY, WAS MAGNIFICENT.

THE ONE THING I WOULD ADD TO WHAT LISA SAID, BECAUSE STEVEN AND I DECIDED TO WATCH "MUNICH."

NEITHER OF US WATCHED IT SINCE IT CAME OUT 20 YEARS AGO.

WHEN WE MADE "THE FABLEMANS," WE DECIDED TO GO TO HIS HOUSE AND WATCH IT.

AND I WAS STUNNED BY SOMETHING -- AND THIS IS WHY I LOVE WORKING WITH HIM.

THERE'S -- IT'S A VERY BLOODY MOVIE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DIE IN IT.

THERE ISN'T A SINGLE DEATH IN THE ENTIRE FILM, EVEN IN A SCENE IN BEIRUT WHERE THERE'S JUST DOZENS OF PEOPLE BEING SHOT AND KILLED, STEVEN NEVER SHOWS YOU A SINGLE DEATH AS A KIND OF ENTERTAINMENT.

HE INTRODUCES -- I DON'T KNOW THAT HE DID THIS CONSCIOUSLY, WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IT, BUT EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO DIES HAS -- THERE'S A MOMENT RIGHT BEFORE THEY DIE THAT FORCES YOU TO RECOGNIZE THAT PERSON'S HUMANITY.

WHICH IS WHY THE MOVIE IS SO UPSETTING.

AND IT'S REALLY UNIQUE IN THAT WAY, AND I THINK IT'S A GREAT RESPONSE TO UNFORTUNATE TENDENCY IN HOLLYWOOD TO USE HUMAN DESTRUCTION, THE DESTRUCTION OF HUMAN LIVES AS A KIND OF, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WAY OF AMPING UP THE STAKES AND GETTING PEOPLE'S HEARTBEATS FASTER.

THERE'S A PROFOUND GRIEF IN THE FILM, IT'S WHY I THINK STEVEN IS A GREAT ARTIST.

IT'S IN "JAWS" WHEN THE SHARK BLOWS UP AT THE END.

THERE'S THIS STUNNING MOMENT WHERE YOU SEE THE FIN UNDERWATER SPINNING THROUGH THIS CLOUD OF BLOOD AND IT'S -- IT'S A MOMENT OF GRIEF FOR THIS MAGNIFICENT CREATURE WHO HAS BEEN DESTROYED.

AND IT UNDERCUTS THE TRIUMPH OF THE END QUITE A BIT.

I -- I LOVE WORKING WITH HIM.

I CONSIDER IT A GREAT HONOR AND ONE OF THE GREATBLESSINGS IN MY LIFE THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED THIS WORKING RELATIONSHIP.

>> YOU KNOW, A LOT OF GREAT ARTISTS IN HISTORY AGREE UP AS OUTSIDERS.

GROWS UP IN A SMALL VILLAGE, GAY, LEFT-HANDED, BORN OUT OF WED LOCK, YOU GREW UP DOWN HERE IN LOUISIANA, LAKE CHARLES, NOT TOO FAR FROM HERE.

GAY AND JEWISH, AND HOW DID THAT SHAPING OF BEING AN OUTSIDER AFFECT YOUR ART?

>> YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A VERY PROUD, VERY SMALL -- YOU ARE FROM LOUISIANA, ALSO, YOU KNOW, WE -- THE JEWISH COMMUNITY IN LAKE CHARLES, LOUISIANA, WAS LARGE ENOUGH TO HAVE A TEMPLE AND SERVICES AND AN IDENTITY AND IT WAS A VERY PROUD IDENTITY AND NO ONE APOLOGIZED FOR BEING JEWISH.

I HAVE SAID MANY, MANY TIMES THAT WHEN I CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET AS A GAY MAN, THE MODEL THAT I USED FOR CLAIMING THIS IDENTITY THAT HAD BEEN -- THAT WAS BEING SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DISPARAGED AND REJECTED AND DISPARAGED BY THE MINORITY, WAS THE IDENTITY THAT MY PARENTS GAVE ME AS A JEW.

IF THEY DON'T LIKE YOU, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM.

NOT YOU.

THEY NEED TO CHANGE.

YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE.

YOU NEED TO BE WHO YOU ARE.

AND I THINK IT WAS AN IMPORTANT LESSON TO LEARN, I MEAN, I -- YOU KNOW, I ALSO GREW UP DURING A TIME OF BUSSING AND INTEGRATION AND SOCIAL ENGINEERING THAT EVEN RICHARD NIXON SORT OF WENT ALONG WITH AND SO MY HIGH SCHOOL WAS INTEGRATED AND THAT TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT WHEN A SOCIETY MAKES A DECISION TO REALLY GO AFTER A GREAT SOCIAL EVIL LIKE RACISM IN THE DEEP SOUTH, ASTONISHING CHANGE CAN HAPPEN.

AND I WATCHED IT HAPPEN IN MY HIGH SCHOOL, AND IT -- THAT CHANGED MY LIFE, I MEAN, I SAW MY COUSINS IN NEW YORK ALL WENT TO SEGREGATED HIGH SCHOOLS, I WENT TO A HIGH SCHOOL THAT BUZZ 50% BLACK AND 50% WHITE.

SO, I GREW UP BELIEVING PROFOUNDLY AND I STILL BELIEVE IN IT, THAT, AGAIN, WHEN WE -- WHEN WE APPLY OURSELVES, WE CAN TAKE SITUATIONS THAT SEEM ABSOLUTELY IRRESOLVABLE AND IMPOSSIBLE TO FIX AND WE CAN FIX THEM.

WE CAN MAKE THINGS BETTER, BUT WE HAVE TO GO AT IT WITH A WILL.

>> ONE OF THE GREAT MILESTONES IN TERMS OF GAY, LESBIAN RIGHTS, WAS ANGELS IN AMERICA.

I THINK, WHAT, 30 YEARS AGO OR SO?

>> YEAH.

>> AND NOW, DO YOU THINK THERE'S BEEN A BACKLASH AGAINST THOSE RIGHTS?

ALL RIGHTS THAT HAVE BEEN GRANTED, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT TO AN ABORTION, THE RIGHT NOW TO HEALTH CARE, IT'S -- WE'RE LEARNING AND I THINK IT'S, FOR ME, A VERY MOVING LESSON, THAT ONCE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GIVEN A RIGHT, THEY WON'T LET GO OF IT EASILY.

I THINK THAT THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND OF THE ACCEPTANCE OF GAY PEOPLE IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT A NEW WAY TO, YOU KNOW -- WITH THESE REALLY REPULSIVE ACCUSATIONS OF CHILD MOLESTATION AND GROOMING AND ALL OF THIS STUFF, IT'S CODED LANGUAGE.

WE HAVEN'T GONE ALL THE WAY BACK TO PAT BUCHANAN GETTING UP IN 1992 AND MAKING HOMOPHOBIC JOKES AT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION.

WE MAY GET THAT NEXT TIME.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT I THINK THERE'S PUSH-BACK, BUT EVERYTHING THAT I READ INDICATES THAT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, WE KNOW NOW, OVERTURN OF ROE, THAT NO RIGHTS ARE -- ARE SECURE.

TO GO BACK TO, YOU KNOW, A JEWISH THEME, WHAT WE LEARN EVERY YEAR IS THAT EVERY GENERATION, A NEW PHAROAH RISES, AND THEED END OF OPPRESSION HAS TO CONSTANTLY BE RENEWED.

YOU CAN'T SAY, OH, WE WON, NOW WE CAN BE SECURE.

>> WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG AND THOUGHT ABOUT BECOMING A PLAYWRIGHT, I READ THAT YOU WERE A LITTLE WORRIED, YOU THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE A BIT TRIVIAL, THAT ART WASN'T SERIOUS ENOUGH.

AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, DO YOU THINK ART AND ESPECIALLY BEING A PLAYWRIGHT, IS SERIOUS ENOUGH AND CAN ACTUALLY HELP CHANGE THE WORLD?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ART CAN CHANGE THE WORLD.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN MAKE ART THINKING YOU'RE GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD, BECAUSE I THINK ART HAS TREMENDOUS POWER, BUT MOSTLY, I THINK ITS POWER IS NOT IN THE WAY THAT IT LEADS DIRECTLY TO ACTION.

I THINK IT'S AN INDIRECT POWER.

POLITICS IS THE NECESSARY EVIL OF POLITICAL ACTION, IS PUSHING ASIDE ALL OF THE CONTRADICTIONS AND COMPLEXITIES OF LIFE AND SAYING, HERE IS THE BEST -- HERE'S OUR BEST GUESS AT WHERE TO MOVE, HOW TO ACT.

ART IN A CERTAIN SENSE DOESN'T DO THAT.

IT SAYS, LET'S LOOK AT OWL OF THE COMPLEXITIES AND ALL OF THE CONTRADICTIONS.

IT DOESN'T SILENCE ANY VOICE.

IT SAYS, LET'S BRING IN THE WHOLE SORT OF PLETHORA OF PERSPECTIVES, AND SPEND TIME THINKING ABOUT HOW OVERWHELMING HUMAN EXPERIENCE IS, HOW OVERWHELMING LIFE IS.

I THINK MOST HUMAN BEINGS FIND ART SOMEWHERE AND ENGAGE WITH IT, AND I THINK IT -- IT FILLS YOUR CAPACITY AND STRENGTHENS YOUR CAPACITY TO BE HUMAN AND TO -- AND THEN YOU WAKE UP OUT OF THE DREAM AND YOU GO FORTH INTO THE WORLD, I THINK MORE CAPABLE OF FIGURING OUT THE RIGHT WAY TO MOVE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE LEARNED NOT TO FILTER OUT TOO MUCH OF THE CONFUSION AND CONTRADICTION BEFORE YOU MAKE THE DECISION, SO YOU -- THAT'S WHERE WISDOM COMES FROM.

I THINK ART CAN PRODUCE WISDOM, IS THE SORT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.

>> TONY KUSHNER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT'S A REAL PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, PEOPLE POWER IN UGANDA.

BORN INTO POVERTY, BOBI WINE FIRST ROSE TO FAME AS A MUSICIAN.

BUT IN 2017, HE PUT HIS CAREER ON HOLD TO ENTER POLITICS, AND WAS ELECTED TO PARLIAMENT IN A LANDSLIDE VICTORY.

TWO YEARS LATER, HE SET HIS SIGHTS ON THE PRESIDENCY, RUNNING AGAINST THE AGING INCUMBENT.

HE'S HELD AN IRON GRIP ON POWER IN UGANDA FOR DECADES.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY, "THE PEOPLE'S PRESIDENT," FOLLOWED HIS CAMPAIGN FOR FIVE YEARS.

IT'S BEEN SHORT LISTED FOR AN OSCAR.

AND BOBI WINE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

BOBI WINE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU KNOW, WE JUST -- >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> WE JUST HAD THE GREAT TONY KUSHNER ON TALKING ABOUT POLITICS AND POWER AND ART, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE PEOPLE.

WHERE DOES YOUR ART, YOUR MUSIC, YOU KNOW, STAND IN YOUR POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS, IN YOUR POLITICAL EFFORTS?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

MY MUSIC OPENED MY EYES, OPENED THE EYES OF THE MASSES, ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG PEOPLE, AND LANDED ME INTO TROUBLE, GOOD TROUBLE.

IT IS MY MUSIC THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY PLATFORM TO COMMUNICATE.

IT IS THE WAY THAT I REACHED OUT TO THE WORLD, IT'S WHAT ENDEARED ME TO THE PEOPLE AND ULTIMATELY, IT IS WHAT I MOVED TO PUT IN PRACTICE BY JOINING POLITICS.

>> SO, I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE -- A LITTLE CLIP FROM THE DOCUMENTARY, AND IT IS CALLED "BOBI WINE, THE PEOPLE'S PRESIDENT."

AS I SAID, IT'S BEEN SHORT LISTED FOR THE OSCARS.

LET'S WATCH THE CLIP.

YOU ARE ADDRESSING CROWDS AT AN ELECTION RALLY.

>> IT IS NOT A SECRET, THAT WE WANT TO REMOVE HIM FROM POWER.

[ APPLAUSE ] OUR POWER!

OUR POWER!

>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE PUT YOURSELF AT GREAT RISK, BECAUSE IT IS NOT EASY TO CHALLENGE AN INCUMBENT, WHO HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR 38 YEARS.

WHAT -- YOU KNOW, ARE YOU STILL GOING TO BE CHALLENGING, ARE YOU STILL GOING TO BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT?

WHAT IS YOUR INTENTION NOW?

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

WE ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO CONTINUE CHALLENGING, IN EVERY AVAILABLE WAY, EVERY MORAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL WAY.

AND, OF COURSE, BY 2026, IF WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN HIM OUT OF POWER, WE WILL DEFINITELY CHALLENGE HIM TO A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

THAT IS WHY WE'RE HERE, TO SEEK THE MORE ATTENTION OF THE WORLD, TO HELP THE PEOPLE OF UGANDA ASSERT THEIR DEMOCRATIC RIGHT.

>> SO, I'M JUST GOING TO READ THESE STATS.

YOU REPRESENTED THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SEARCHING FOR CHANGE.

BUT YOU KNOW, 58.38% OF THE VOTE WAS WON BY THE INCUMBENT, YOU HAD 35%.

AND THERE'S BEEN WIDESPREAD ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD AND INTIMIDATION.

YOU HAD THESE LYRICS IN ONE OF YOUR SONGS, WHICH I PUT TO THE PRESIDENT, IT WAS BACK IN '21, YOU SAID, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF LIBERATION WHEN WE CAN'T HAVE A PEACEFUL TRANSITION?

FREEDOM FIGHTERS BECAME DICTATORS.

JUST TAKE A LISTEN TO HOW HE ANSWERED ME WHEN I PUT THAT TO HIM.

>> THAT IS WRONG.

WE HAVE BEEN HAVING TRANSITION.

WE'VE BEEN HAVING TRANSITION, BY HAVING ELECTIONS.

EVERY FIVE YEARS.

WE HAVE ELECTIONS.

AND IF THE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO -- TO GIVE US A MANDATE, THEY WOULD VOTE US OUT.

>> SO, DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, >> WELL, HE SAID FAMOUSLY IN 1986 WHEN HE TOOK OVER POWER THAT AFRICA'S PROBLEM AND UGANDA IN PARTICULAR ARE THE LEADERS THAT OVERSTAY IN POWER.

AND 38 YEARS LATER, HE DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT HE SAID OR HE TRIES TO CHANGE WHAT HE SAID, JUST LIKE IT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK OF ANIMAL FARM, WHERE ANIMAL WHERE PIGS ULTIMATELY SAID THAT ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.

OF COURSE HE HAS CONTINUOUSLY ABUSED POWER, HE HAS RIGGED ELECTIONS.

THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN ELECTION OBSERVERS WERE NOT EVEN ABLE TO OVERSEE THE ELECTION OF 2021, WHICH IS VERY CLEARLY FOLLOWED UP IN THAT FILM, AND ALL THE BRUTALITY THAT WAS UNLEASHED TO US, OR TO MAKE SURE THAT HE KEEPS POWER.

OF COURSE IT'S A SHAM, HOWEVER, THE PEOPLE OF UGANDA, WHO ARE MAJORLY YOUNG PEOPLE, REFUSE TO GIVE UP.

WE CONTINUE TO PURSUE A DEMOCRATIC AND PEACEFUL MEAN OF CHANGING POWER, AND WE BELIEVE THAT IF THE WORLD STANDS WITH THE PEOPLE OF UGANDA, WE CAN ULTIMATELY GET A PEACEFUL TRANSITION FROM THE DICTATORSHIP TO A DEMOCRATIC UGANDA, WHICH WILL HAVE POWER, YOU KNOW, IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE, AND THE LEADERS WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE.

THAT IS WHAT WE'RE STRUGGLING FOR.

>> YOU KNOW, I READ FROM THE DIRECTOR'S NOTES THAT ONE OF THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO MAKE THIS FILM IS ALSO TO TRY TO CONVINCE WORLD LEADERS, LIKE DEMOCRATIC LEADERS, NOT TO KEEP PROPPING UP THIS GOVERNMENT, NOT TO KEEP SENDING AID.

AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK AND WHAT YOU WOULD DO IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT?

BECAUSE IN MAY, THE PARLIAMENT IN UGANDA PASSED THE ANTI-HOME SEXUALITY ACT, WHICH APART FROM BEING VERY BRUTAL ON THE VICTIMS, ALSO HAS, YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPACTED THE ECONOMY OF UGANDA, THE WORLD BANK SAYS IT WON'T CONSIDER FRESH LOANS, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE TOURISM AND BUSINESS HAVE BEEN AFFECTED.

BY THAT.

YOU KNOW, BY SEGREGATING A WHOLE SECTION OF YOUR -- OF YOUR COUNTRY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK UGANDA CAN DO TO REVERSE THAT LAW?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I'VE SAID THIS SEVERALLY, THAT OURS IS A STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, FROM ALL UGANDAS FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

THAT SAID, I MUST ALSO SAY THAT THE LGBTQ ISSUE IN UGANDA HAS BEEN POLITICIZED, IT HAS BEEN TURNED INTO A POLITICAL TOOL.

LIKE MOST DICTATORS IN AFRICA HAVE TURNED THAT ISSUE INTO A WEAPON, A POLITICAL WEAPON AGAINST POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

IT'S FOR THAT REASON THAT I WOULD REQUEST YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF I CANNOT COMMENT FURTHER ON THAT ISSUE, BECAUSE A LAW HAS BEEN PASSED IN UGANDA, AND ANYTHING THAT I SAY HERE CAN BE USED AGAINST ME BACK HOME BY THE REGIME.

BUT I'LL STILL SAY THAT WE CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS FOR EVERY UGANDAN, FOR EVERY PERSON IN UGANDA, FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

>> AND VERY BRIEFLY, IN TEN SECONDS, DO YOU PLAN TO GO BACK ANY TIME SOON?

>> YES.

I'M GOING BACK TO UGANDA.

I AM IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO MAKE OUR PLIGHT KNOWN.

WE ARE VERY GLAD THAT WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE THIS FILM OUT HERE, I'M THANKFUL TO NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL FOR HAVING, GIVING US THIS PLATFORM.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> GIVING US THIS PLATFORM TO TELL OUR UGANDAN STORY.

AND I HOPE THIS REACHES OUT TO ALL PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY POLICY MAKERS, TO INSPIRE THEM TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES TOWARDS UGANDA, TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T CONTINUOUSLY PROP UP A DICTATOR WHO ABUSES RIGHTS AND ABUSES DEMOCRACY, IT IS A SHAME TO SEE WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY ARE STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH A KNOWN DICTATOR.

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT FINAL WORD, BOBI WINE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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♪♪