Hi, I'm Nora Lopez, executive editor of the San Antonio Express-News.

Our guest today is Ernesto Rodriguez, the Alamo senior historian and curator.

The Alamo is undergoing a massive $550 million public private expansion and makeover that has been years in the making.

As senior historian Ernesto is overseeing the creation of a new museum that will tell the full 300 year history of the Alamo.

He recently celebrated his 25th year working there as a historian and lecturer.

We're all familiar with the phrase remember the Alamo.

Ernest, who likes to say it's his job to teach us why?

So before we launch into the Alamo, all things the Alamo, tell us a little bit about yourself.

You from San Antonio went to school here?

Memorial High School.

You went to Saint Mary's?

University as well?

And I know from previous interviews and, that I read, you remember visiting the Alamo when you were a youngster?

Tell me about that.

Tell me about your first experience.

So I remember visiting here, and it was probably around 81 or so because it was the year of the Indiana Jones movies.

And, we were at home summer, and my mother says, hey, you know, why don't we go do something special?

So one of our cousins was staying with us.

So my little sister, myself, and my mom rode the bus with this cousin all the way downtown.

We never rock.

That's right.

So we rode downtown there, where we stopped at the Kress.

Right there by City Hall.

We we ate there, and then we made our way to the Alamo.

And I remember coming into the site being excited because as a kid, you see all the trees in the back.

And I wanted to come work here because of the fact that there were so many trees that I could climb.

That was my whole thing.

You know, climbing trees.

And then after that visit, after we were getting ready to leave, my mom said, you know, y'all can get one thing in the gift shop each.

And so I remember the thing I bought was a flip, because there was, there were, there was a they were selling whips.

And I remember there was a lady in the back of the gift shop as she would crack the whip so people could hear it.

Well, you fast forward, you know, many, many years and I come to work at the Alamo and I'm talking to the gift shop personnel.

We're joking around and I go, yeah, the kid, I came here and you all were selling whips, and one of them, named Dolores Motta, looks at me and says, that was me.

I was the one that would crack the whips at the back of the at the back of the gift shop.

So I got to work with the lady that sold me the sold me the whip.

So it's one of those full circle moments.

And it was really it was an interesting thing because, you know, never would I have in my wildest dreams thought that I would end up working at the Alamo.

And the position that I am today.

It's one of those really exciting things.

But that was the release part.

An interest in the Alamo because there was an interest in history, but it was broader and that helped focus it into more Texas oriented history.

And is that when you're when did you really start delving into the history of the Alamo and became like this history book?

Soon after that, I went full blown history person, but it was still brought, you know, because you have to know where you're coming from to know where you're going.

And so a lot of times it was because my dad, you know, he would say, we're going on vacation.

So he'd go travel to visit family in Mexico.

And wherever we stopped, we visited museums, we visited churches.

And his thing was, you need to learn as much as you can.

And so he was giving us culture.

Now, my dad was a man that went to about third grade, and so he always worked hard his entire life.

And my mom as well, you know, being someone who was born in Mexico, she only went up to about eighth grade because that's where the school ended, right?

And so they both really instilled a lot of educational ideas and the concept of you must move on and study and study and study.

And it's one of those really interesting things, because my dad would do things for school that aren't what normal people do.

He made sure that my cousins went to college.

He would drive one of my cousins to San Marcos on Sunday night and pick her up on Friday, so she would make sure to go to school that he made sure we went to school.

Right.

So all four kids ended up going to the university, getting the degrees, you know?

And so it's, it was that love of education.

And through that love of education, I fell in love with history.

And it's one of those fun things because, you know, most times when you study history, you're going to go into teaching and you need to be a coach.

Right?

And so, I went into the academic realm as and when I received my B.A.

in history, well, I needed a place to work.

And so I ended up at the Alamo and, working under Doctor Winters.

And he gave me a great opportunity.

And the opportunity was to work in a site where you can help mold it.

And his thing was, history is all connected, and that's what we follow today.

It's history, like connecting.

Nothing happened in a vacuum.

So you need to tell a full story.

And I've been lucky enough to be able to help do that.

And do you see do you think about that juxtaposition that, you know, once upon a time you visited there, you love the grounds, but now here you are, helping to oversee this, renovation.

And it's not just a physical renovation, but a retelling or maybe a different narrative of the history of this, wonderful, mission.

When you think about that, how do you feel?

I feel privileged to be able to do what I love.

And it's one of those things that I look at this, this whole idea as.

It's a puzzle, or it can be a tapestry, and you look at it and it's like every piece matters.

And so what we're doing today is that we're really weaving that tapestry to include every thread, because it's important.

You know, when I look at the Alamo, I not only see an old Spanish mission, I don't only see a fort, I don't really see a quartermaster depot or a museum.

I see the building of a community, a community that would change the course of Texas history and its literacy.

That's really important because I live in this community and everything that it's done in its creation, to making it one of the most vibrant cities that we know today through the idea of bringing people from all walks of life, every race, together, to form the city that we're in today.

It starts with an old Spanish mission understand Antonio River in 17, 18, 18, and I'm able to be really at the forefront of telling that full story.

That's amazing.

Okay, so right now there's this huge renovation going on, $550 million renovation talked about for decades.

Seems like we finally, ten years ago really started to like, okay, this is going to happen.

Construction started, I believe, in October.

Tell us to kind of give us a little bit broad overview of what that $550 million project entails.

So the the project, the entire project is to one establish and build a new world class museum.

But it also goes back to the heart of what we stand for.

And it's conservation.

We one of our biggest things is conserving the church and a long barrack for future generations.

You know, artifact one and two are the most important things.

And we focus on the museum a lot.

But at the same time, our bigger focus is preserving what we have for future generations.

And so we're working hard and it's a balance because, you know, we are working on this project, that we talk to the community, we get their input.

And so it's a community effort because like in 1718 when it was established, it was a community coming together.

And right now we're at that perfect point in our history where everyone sees the importance of this project and it's the community that's helping them push it forward.

And I'm just lucky that I'm a big part of it, and I see it as a way for us to not only showcase San Antonio and the history, but showcase the great state of Texas to the world.

And so it's one of those things that we I look at it and it's, it's an honor to do what I'm doing at this site at this point.

But it's also a lot of responsibility because there are so many stakeholders involved, and we need to be able to make all of them happy.

And in order to do so, we have to tell a complex story that is not just one side or another, it's multiple sides.

And so when we are done here, I really look forward to standing in the museum and looking at our guests.

Come through and be in awe about learning about things they never knew happened or existed.

And so I'm excited about that point.

It's just getting there that's going to take a while to do think, because, I mean, even getting there has been, oh my God, they've put out controversy.

I've done other people argue about, you know, what is it going to look like?

What is it going to focus on?

What's the vision?

The senator's the one and move it.

No, you got to keep it there.

I mean, did you think you were going to get to this point where.

Okay.

Yeah, things are happening.

We construction is moving ahead.

Yes.

I just, I knew there was going to be a struggle.

And it's because this site matters.

And that's the most important thing, because it matters to so many people.

There's a lot of passion.

And we listen and we we listen to what people want to tell us, because we want people to be proud of the site as much as I am.

And so whenever we get into a situation where people are upset, when you listen to what they're want to tell you, you can come to a resolution, a compromise where everyone is happy because we're able to work on that balance.

But it takes people coming together and that's what we've been able to do.

That's this project has brought people together.

We sit at a table and opposing viewpoints are heard, and then we discuss and we figure out the middle ground where everyone could be happy.

The Alamo exists so much for so many people outside of actually being in in San Antonio people and seeing movies, the John Wayne movies, remakes, books have been written about it.

So people come with their own preconceived notions about the Alamo.

They're often surprised that it's right smack downtown.

How do you handle that?

Does that make it harder?

Your job harder at.

Sometimes it does, because, when people see movies, many people believe what happened in the movie.

And so you have to tell us a different side.

And then they actually realize that the real story that we know is more interesting than the motion picture that they saw.

And they start to realize this and go, wow, there's more to this than what I saw on TV.

And so it's one of those things that you draw people in by just communicating and asking answering questions.

One of the most important things of my job is, is everyone knows the phrase, Remember the Alamo, and my job is to teach the why.

It's one of those places that the phrase or over the Alamo works well.

Why do people remember?

Well, there's many reasons to remember in 1836, or remembering their friends that died fighting at the site.

But remember, the Alamo can also be remember the history before and the history after.

And so we're lucky enough to be able to tell A43 hundred year story and then some to our public.

And it's always fun because you've always had that individual that will continue to ask questions.

And so it turned it from just, an question answer to a full dialog.

And it's always pleasant when you're able to communicate with the with your guest.

And that's one of the things I enjoy is wandering the grounds and, answering people's questions when I can, you know, when I have free time to do so.

It's always fun because that personal interaction is something that we will also remember.

You know, how many times do you go to a museum and senior curator is talking to you about where to eat or other questions that you may have, you know, so, it makes it special.

And it's one of those things that I want everyone to feel special when they come visit, because it is a special place, and everyone that visits is part of that community that will help us continue moving forward.

One thing that excites me about what, what you're doing is, you're going to focus on the entire history and not so much on on this.

Well, obviously, you're you're paying reverence to the, the siege, but you're trying to encompass all of its history and, and you're dividing it up into galleries that tell a different chapter of the story.

Can you tell us about some of those?

Yes.

So the, you know, the, the biggest gallery will be the battle gallery, because that's what people know us for.

But then we're going to have galleries that talk about the indigenous era so that people can come and understand that the indigenous people were here before then we're going to have the Spanish period.

So we're going to be able to talk about Spain's arrival in the building of a mission and what happens.

Pulse mission.

Then you're going to have the gallery that talks about the Republic of Mexico.

And that one's really interesting, because how do you create a new nation?

And so you have a constitution, and what happens with the Constitution and how it brings colonization into Texas and then the Texas Revolution, which is why people come.

And then from there we move on to the U.S. Army, period, and the commercialization of the properties.

And and then we go to the preservation.

And then it ends with the how we remember, basically.

And that's a gallery that is going to be one of those.

It's going to be a pleasant surprise for our guests, because how do we remember?

And we stated earlier, people watch movies, read books.

And it's amazing how many references are made to the Alamo in media.

And so imagine coming in and seeing objects from 1955 when Fess Parker was doing Davy Crockett, King of Frontier, and all the mass produced merchandise for that.

Having the space where you can see things that bring back these memories of childhood.

And so it's exciting because we're able to tell this story and it'll end on a high note, where people's memories will be jogged a little bit and people will be like, I remember of that, the Alamo and pop culture.

Yep.

And that's really important because we're here because of that important battle.

But how people perceive and remember the site is through media and imagine, you know, you were a child, you come in here and you see something from John Wayne movie or your, a child today and you show up and you remember sitting with grandmother and grandfather watching John Wayne's movie.

You know, it'll jog that memory and it brings it home and it makes a personal.

And I'm sure everybody asks about the basement after Pee-Wee Herman.

Yeah.

Yes.

A lot of people ask about the basement, and it's.

And then the fun part is that we can tell them, well, there is a basement, but it wasn't here during the mission, and it wasn't here doing pyramids.

Movie was being talked.

You know, sometimes people do come and ask me about the basement I had about a year ago.

A group stood outside and started singing.

And the stars at night are big, and having to stop myself from responding was tough, but I did.

But no, it's a it's a special place.

And with this museum, the other thing we're going to be able to do is we're going to be able to talk about more modern history, you know, a civil rights gallery talking about how important the civil rights movement was in San Antonio and the way that there was this peaceful manner, this surrogate, great desegregating the lunch counters and one of the lunch counters that was desegregated, set on the old mission footprint.

So we're able to tell that story, too.

So I'm excited because we're going to be able to do more than we've ever done before.

And when this is complete, is going to draw so many people to our city and our state to see what the Alamo is, what it will become.

And it's also helps to show how that small mission that was founded in 1718 really did fulfill its purpose of creating this wonderful city community.

And that's the reason it's downtown, because it was here first.

It was here first.

The city grew around it.

Yes, it did.

And it's one of those things that, you know, you think about it.

It's like the fact that we're going to be able to talk about a group of people coming here and having that relationship with the indigenous population to work together, which is one of those incredible things.

Two groups from different walks of life, different ideas coming together to build something new is what really fascinates me now.

I also heard, saw, you and another, panel where you talked about how, you're drawing, as much as you can from the stories that do exist, from the people who, who survived.

And, I think you said it's it's the story of the voiceless because all the men died.

And so we have the stories as told by women, children.

And the enslaved.

So how will you tell that story?

Is a part of the story?

Yes it is.

It'll be part of the it'll be a part of the battle narrative because it's really important.

That's what really makes the battle stories so special, is that it is a story that is told by, like we said, the voiceless.

And at the Alamo, yes, I did, and it right at the Alamo.

They talk so loud and it resonates and it echoes through history.

Because where else do we have a story that is told by women, children, the enslaved, and that it carries on hundreds of years?

And so you think about the story of Joe, where he describes a final battle and how it echoes.

That's the foundation for our battle narrative.

And then you have the interviews with Susanna Dickinson and the interviews with Enrique Esparza, who was asked many years later, do you remember the battle?

And he says it is and be indelibly seared in my mind, you know, thing too, is he was speaking of Spanish, and this was translated into English by the newspaper man that was recording him, but it still echoes today.

And that's a really interesting thing about the battle itself, is that people from all over came here to fight doctors, lawyers.

There were farmers, they spoke English, some spoke Spanish, one spoke French.

Now you think about it, it's really an important thing because again, it's, the sanitary community, but in a small location at a battle site.

And today that you walk around San Antonio, you can hear almost every language spoken in the world here, the same as you would have heard it during this 1830s where people were coming for this cause, which is like protection, independence, and they're coming from all over the world.

So answering Travis's and Ariana's call on February 24th.

So you think about it, it's like, it's amazing to me because I just think about the fact that we continue that idea of becoming the big melting pot, and this museum will help us to tell the story of this melting pot.

That is one of the most important battles in American history, some of the most recognizable sights.

You know, everyone recognizes the Alamo.

No matter where you are in the world.

Everybody knows the front of the facade.

And when they come here, they're going to leave with more knowledge about not only how they constructed the facade, but what happened here and why we are here today.

Now, I understand that you're also, getting first person accounts from, Mexico.

Right?

You're working with Mexico and, some of the soldiers, lower ranked officers.

You're getting recorded.

Their memories of this.

Yeah, we're we're working on trying to get more information from the archives in Mexico.

Some of the higher ranking officers did write their memoirs.

And, and so we're trying to get more information because, you know, there's a different view from someone that's at the top and someone that's in the lower ranks.

And so we're working hard for that because you want to be able to tell the full story.

And so we're even traveling to Spain, then going through their archives in order to be able to get information on the building of a mission and what the Canary Islanders did when they came to Santa.

You know how they came.

A century or so, we're working with a lot of these partnerships, and, it's exciting because this is a special time to be at the Alamo.

We're doing things that were would have never been thought of before, because we're thinking outside the box.

Wonderful.

Tell me one thing that you think might surprise me about the Alamo, though.

One of the things that might surprise you is that some of the first vaccinations in Texas happened at the Alamo, after the first hospital in Texas was established in 1805.

In 1806, they start vaccinating people here for smallpox.

And so when you think about what's happening today in modern society and the fact that this is a military hospital, and today, for example, Houston is a hub for most of the military medical training.

It brings that whole thing full circle.

And so the fact that the Alamo is where it started is really impressive and important to the people of Texas, because medicine in Texas, the way we know it today, evolved from a very primitive form medicine back in 1805.

So if I were to go visit tomorrow, what is what are some of the new things that you've, installed, some of the, artifacts that you have?

What can folks expect to see if they were to drop by tomorrow?

So if you were to drop by tomorrow, one of the things that you would see is the opening of a plaza.

We've opened up part of the plaza to make a more of accessible for pedestrian barrier and fencing.

And so it's bringing the plazas back to the community, and then you're going to walk through this mission gate and lunette, which is an interpretation of the way it would have been back in 1835 and in the 1700s.

So we're able to showcase mission period, Mexican period, battle period.

Then when you walk into the Lombard today, we have a new eye type thing.

It's a virtual tablet product, and you can see what the Alamo would have looked like in different periods of history.

And so you get the tablet and you're able to turn and move it around, and you can see the Spanish period.

You can see every period.

And it's in order to provide people with a better understanding of the site.

But the newest part of the grounds, the biggest change on the ground, I should say, is the Ralston Family Collection Center.

So first time that we set up a building specifically to house our collections, we have a large collection, and we want to be able to display more of it because it doesn't help us to have it in a vault.

So the more people can see it, the more they can learn from it.

And we are an institution of learning and so can't wait to be able to showcase more of it.

Well, thank you.

My pleasure.

Thank you for joining us today.

If you have any comments or suggestions for a future Texas talk, email us at Texas Talk at Keller and Dawg.

Until next time, I'm Nora Lopez.