♪ >> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO.." HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

A MAJOR NEW CLIMATE DEAL IS STRUCK IN DUBAI.

IS IT ALL HOT AIR OR WILL IT REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

I ASK A CLIMATE EXPERT.

AND BIDEN DELIVERS HIS HARSHEST CRITICISM YET OF ISRAEL'S GAZA WAR.

I GOT INSIDE ON THE REGION.

AND THEN, TEXAS DENIED KATE COX AND ABORTION, EVEN WITH A FATAL DIAGNOSIS FOR THE FETUS.

I SPEAK TO HER ATTORNEY.

AND THEN GOP POLITICS ON THIS ISSUE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST LIZ MAHER TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN.

♪ >> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEAR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK, JAY MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM IN LONDON, I AM CHRIST IANE AMANPOUR.

>> YOU DELIVERED.

CHRISTIANE: CHEERS AND HUGS IN DUBAI TODAY FOR A NEW MAJOR CLIMATE DEAL, ONE THAT SUPPORTERS SAY ROCKS THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF FOSSIL FUELS.

NEARLY 200 COUNTRIES AGREED FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER TO TRANSITION AWAY FROM OIL, COAL AND GAS, AND MOVE CLOSER TO THE GOAL OF ACHIEVING AT ZERO BY 2050.

IT IS THE END OF TWO WEEKS OF INTENSE NEGOTIATIONS AT THE U.N.

CLIMATE SUMMIT KNOWN AS COP 28, BUT NOT ALL PARTIES ARE HAPPY BECAUSE IT IS NOT ACTUALLY CALL FOR PHASING OUT FOSSIL FUELS.

ISLAND NATIONS COMPLAIN IT COULD BE A DEATH FOR THEM, AND CLIMATE ACTIVISTS FOR THE DEAL, WHICH IS NOT LEGALLY BINDING, CALL IT WOEFULLY INSUFFICIENT, CLAIMING IT LETS THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY OFF THE HOOK.

HERE WITH A VERDICT IS THE EXPERT, LORD NICHOLAS STERN, A LONGTIME CLIMATE SCHOLAR AND AUTHOR OF THE LANDMARK REPORT FOR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT ON THE ISSUE.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE HAVE TALKED THROUGHOUT THE YEARS ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

WE HAVE TALKED TO VARIOUS COP'S ABOUT THIS.

CAN YOU SUM UP IN A WORD -- EVERYBODY WAS WORRIED THINKING THESE NEGOTIATIONS ARE NOT GOING TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN A WAY THAT WAS EXEMPLARY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE COME UP WITH?

GUEST: I THINK IT IS A PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT.

I THINK MANY OF US WOULD HAVE LIKED IT TO BE STRONGER, SUCH AS THE PHASING OUT OF FOSSIL FUEL WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LANGUAGE I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED BUT IT WAS CLEAR THEY CANNOT GET THAT THROUGH.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE KIND OF LANGUAGE YOU DESCRIBED AT THE BEGINNING, WHICH WAS TRANSITIONING AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS AND ENERGY SYSTEMS, ACCELERATING ACTION SO AS TO ACHIEVE NET ZERO BY 2050 IN KEEPING WITH THE SCIENCE.

THAT IS PRETTY CLEAR STEER OF DIRECTION.

OF COURSE, THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING IS IN THE EATING, AND NOW IT IS A CHALLENGE FOR COUNTRIES TO STEP UP AND DO THE INVESTMENT NECESSARY TO BRING DOWN EMISSION, AND THAT MEANS INVESTING IN THE CLEAN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RUN DOWN THE OLD AND DIRTY.

CHRISTIANE: THAT IS A GOOD WAY OF PUTTING IT, BUT CYNICS WOULD SAY THIS IS ALL KIND OF ASPIRATIONAL.

YES, THAT WORD TRANSITIONING AWAY, ETC., WAS, BUT A LOT OF WHAT IS LEFT IN THE COMMUNIQUÉ IS ASPIRATIONAL, AND IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT WE HEARD COMING OUT OF THE LAST TWO COP'S, ETC., IN TERMS OF WHERE ARE THE DEADLINES?

WHERE ARE THE MARKERS?

WHERE ARE THE HOLDING GOVERNMENTS AND INDUSTRIES TO ACCOUNT?

DO YOU SEE ANYTHING HERE THAT ACTUALLY FORCES THE STAKEHOLDERS TO DO THIS WORK?

GUEST: THERE IS NO POLICE FORCE FROM MARS THAT IS GOING TO ENFORCE THIS.

THE DESIGN OF THE SYSTEMS WAS TO SET TARGETS AND DIRECTIONS, AND THEN IT IS UP TO THE COUNTRIES TO DESCRIBE HOW THEY ARE GOING TO DELIVER, AND THEN, OF COURSE, ACTUALLY DO WHAT THEY HAVE DESCRIBED.

THAT IS THE WAY THIS WORKS.

WITHOUT THAT, WE WOULD NOT HAVE GOT THE AGREEMENT, BUT IT IS ACTUALLY REMARKABLE HOW FAR WE HAVE COME SINCE THE PARIS AGREEMENT WAS THE FIRST IN 2015, COP 21, WAS THE FIRST TO SET THAT DIRECTION, AND WHAT WE SEE NOW IS AT THE TIME OF PARIS, WE ARE PROBABLY HEADING AT THE END OF THIS CENTURY SOMETHING CLOSE TO FOUR DEGREES, AND NOW AFTER PARIS, YOU'RE PROBABLY HEADING FOR SOMETHING WHICH IS 2.5 TO THREE DEGREES OR LOWER IF PEOPLE DELIVER ON WHAT THEY SAY.

I THINK THIS AGREEMENT COULD ALLOW US TO BRING THAT DOWN CONSIDERABLY, SO STATING THOSE SENSES OF DIRECTION HAVE LED TO THE BIG COST OF SOLAR AND WIND, AND THE CLEAN CHEAPER THAN THE DIRTY COSTS 30% OF EMISSIONS, AND IT WOULD BE 70% IN THE EARLY 20 30'S.

I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT A SENSE OF DIRECTION WHICH THESE KINDS OF AGREEMENTS DELIVER, BUT ENFORCEMENT IS NOT THERE.

WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

AND THE PROCESSES HAVE TO WORK, AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS INCREASINGLY SHOWING THAT THESE ARE GOOD INVESTMENTS PROVIDED THE OBSTACLES TO THOSE INVESTMENTS ARE REMOVED AND THE COST OF CAPITAL IS SUFFICIENTLY AFFORDABLE.

CHRISTIANE: LET'S TAKE SOME OF THESE SEPARATELY.

THE POLITICAL WHEEL AND THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL HAS TO BE CLEAR.

BUT, AS YOU KNOW, IN U.K., BACK IN GLASGOW, COP 26 IN 2021 THEN, APPROVED TO PHASE DOWN COAL-FIRED POWER PLANTS, BUT BRITAIN, YOUR COUNTRY, APPROVED A NEW COAL MINE ONE YEAR LATER, AND NOW THERE IS APPROVAL OF DRILLING OFF THE NORTH SEA AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

IT APPEARS TO BE BACKSLIDING FROM THIS COUNTRY ITSELF, WHICH HOSTED, YOU KNOW, GREAT BRITAIN HOSTED A COP.

HOW CAN PEOPLE WHO ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT THE CLIMATE, WE JUST WITNESSED WHAT MAY END UP BEING SO FAR THE HOTTEST YEAR ON RECORD, HOW CAN WE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY WHEN WE SEE, YOU KNOW, THINGS ROLLING BACKWARDS AND GOVERNANCE RENEGING ON PLEDGES?

SPEAKING OUT OF TWO SIDES OF THEIR MOUTH.

GUEST: I THINK THE APPROVAL OF THE COAL MINE IN THE NORTHWEST OF ENGLAND, I THINK THE PERMISSIONS FOR EXTRA EXPLORATION DRILLING IN THE NORTH SEA, WHICH WE HAVE HAD OVER THESE LAST MONTHS OR SINCE COP 26 IS A VERY SERIOUS MISTAKE, AND IT HASN'T DAMAGED, UNDERSTANDABLY, THE U.K.'S ROLE IN THE WORLD.

VACILLATING AND BACKSLIDING MIX PEOPLE MORE UNCERTAIN ABOUT THE RETURNS TO THE INVESTMENT TO THE NEW AND CLEAN, AND THAT INCREASES THE COST OF CAPITAL.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THIS GOVERNMENT OVER THE LAST MONTH OR LAST MONTHS, INCLUDING THAT COAL MY DECISION LAST YEAR, I THINK IS A REAL PROBLEM, AND WE HAVE TO CALL IT OUT.

I HAVE CALLED IT OUT IN THE HOUSE AND ELSEWHERE, AND I HOPE THAT THE GOVERNMENT WILL REVERSE THAT.

THEY SHOULD.

CHRISTIANE: THIS IS BRITAIN WHO CLAIMS TO BE A CLIMATE PIONEER FOR THE WORLD, SO IF BRITAIN IS DOING THIS AND YOU SAY IT HAS TO BE CALLED OUT AND IS A MISTAKE, WHAT HOPE CAN THERE BE FOR ACTUAL OPEC COUNTRIES TODAY WITH A NEED TO DO?

AGAIN, NOTE PRESSURE ON THEM AT THIS FINAL COMMUNIQUÉ, AND WE KNOW THAT ACTIVELY TRIED TO INTERVENE IN THE NEGOTIATIONS.

SAUDI ARABIA IN OIL AND GAS COMPANIES ARGUED TALKS SHOULD FOCUS ON EMISSIONS INSTEAD OF FOSSIL FUELS.

LET ME READ A LITTLE FROM THE FT EDITORIAL TODAY.

IT SAID OPEC DID NOT GET ITS WAY.

THE OUTCOME IS FAR FROM PERFECT.

IT IS BETTER THAN FEARED, BUT LESS THAN NEEDED.

IT BOWS TOO MUCH TO THE FORCES OF INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMACY AND TOO LITTLE TO THE UNMOVABLE REALITIES OF SCIENCE.

THE OIL CARTEL, OPEC, DID NOT IN THE END GET ITS WAY, BUT NOR DID NATIONS SEEKING A STRONGER AGREEMENT.

WE TALKED A LITTLE ABOUT THE BLURRING AROUND THE EDGES, BUT THERE WERE THOUSANDS, METRIC TON LOADS OF FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY LOBBYISTS.

THEY VASTLY OUTNUMBERED CLIMATE ACTIVISTS, AND IT IS A CONCERN, A REAL CONCERN.

GUEST: I THINK THE FT EDITORIAL GOT IT ABOUT RIGHT, AND WHAT IT TELLS US IS THAT YOU CAN MAKE PROGRESS, BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP UP THE PRESSURE AND BE VIGILANT.

I THINK OPEC DID PUSH BACK AND NOT QUITE AS SUCCESSFULLY AS THEY WOULD HAVE HOPED.

I DON'T THINK THERE WERE MORE OIL LOBBYISTS THAN CLIMATE ACTIVISTS, BUT THERE WERE TOO MANY OIL AND GAS LOBBYISTS WITH 2000 OR 3000 OF THEM RELATIVE TO THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CLIMATE ACTIVISTS, BUT THAT IS NOT A CRUCIAL POINT.

THE OIL AND GAS LOBBYISTS ARE PRETTY EFFECTIVE.

INTERESTINGLY, NOT AS EFFECTIVE AS THEY WOULD HAVE HOPED FOR.

SO I THINK THAT FT EDITORIAL IS ABOUT RIGHT.

WE WILL PROBABLY PEAK EMISSIONS AS A WORLD IN THIS NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

WE WILL PROBABLY PEAK ALL OF OIL, GAS AND COAL BEFORE 2030, SO THERE IS MOMENTUM TO BUILD ON.

IN CHINA, 30% OF THE CARS ARE ALREADY ELECTRIC.

THEY ARE INVESTING 200 GIGAWATTS IN RENEWABLES EVERY YEAR IN CHINA.

COMPARE THAT WITH 80 GIGAWATTS TOTAL CAPACITY IN THE U.K. INDIA IS MOVING VERY STRONGLY, MOST OF THE CARS NOW ARE ELECTRIC, SO WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THERE IS REAL PROGRESS, BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS IT IS NOWHERE NEAR FAST ENOUGH, AND I THINK THIS AGREEMENT WILL HELP US PICK UP PACE, BUT IT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE POLITICAL PRESSURE OR THE PRIVATE SECTOR SHOWING THAT THIS TRULY IS THE BIGGEST INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY SINCE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AS THE CHAIR OF BLACKROCK CALLED IT.

SO I THINK WITH POLITICAL PRESSURE AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR SHOWING THAT THERE ARE ARE ENORMOUS, VALUABLE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES HERE, THEN I THINK WE CAN MAKE PROGRESS.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT WE ARE NOT GOING FAST ENOUGH AND WE HAVE TO ACCELERATE.

I THINK THIS AGREEMENT IS A HELP IN THAT DIRECTION, BUT IT IS NOT MAGIC DELIVERY.

CHRISTIANE: I WANT TO REVERSE OR RE-WRITE THE TAPE 22015 AND THE PARIS AGREEMENT, THE UN CLIMATE CHIEF WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR WRANGLING EVERYBODY TOGETHER, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF GOODWILL BECAUSE THERE WAS MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGHS.

IN PARIS -- IN PARIS.

AFTERWARDS, SHE EXPRESSED OPTIMISM FOR THE FUTURE.

WE ARE NOW IN THE FUTURE, EIGHT YEARS LATER.

LET'S LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID EIGHT YEARS AGO.

>> THE WORLD IS READY TO EMBRACE THE TECHNOLOGIES OF THE CENTURY, THE TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE GOING TO TAKE US INTO A MUCH MORE PROSPEROUS, SAFER, MORE STABLE WORLD, WITH MORE JOBS, THEIR HEALTH, WITH MUCH GREATER INFRASTRUCTURE, AND WITH MUCH MORE ENERGY AVAILABLE AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE 1.3 BILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY UN-ELECTRIFIED.

WE ARE STANDING HERE ON THE BRINK OF A WHOLE NEW WORLD.

CHRISTIANE: SO SHE IS A VERY OPTIMISTIC PERSON AND THAT WAS A HUGE GATEWAY TO HOPE.

EVERYBODY WAS VERY OPTIMISTIC AFTER PARIS.

HOW MUCH OF THAT HAS COME TRUE?

YOU TALKED ON WHAT SHE TALKED ABOUT, THE INVESTMENT, THE ENERGY -- I DON'T MEAN THE WORD ENERGY, BUT THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND THE FINANCIALS OF IT.

HOW MUCH ARE THEY REALLY THINKING THAT THIS IS A MASSIVE OPPORTUNITY?

HOW MUCH MONEY ARE THEY SPENDING ON THIS?

GUEST: WELL, MOST OF THE MAJORITY NOW OF THE CAPACITY BUILD FOR ELECTRICITY IS IN RENEWABLES IN LARGE MEASURE.

IT IS ALREADY THE CASE THAT THE MAJORITY OF INVESTMENT IS NOT IN THE DIRTY TECHNOLOGIES OF THE LAST CENTURY.

IN THAT CASE, THEN LOOKING AHEAD WAS ROUGHLY RIGHT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE COST OF SOLAR, IT HAS COME DOWN IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS BY A FACTOR OF 8, 9, OR 10.

SO THE NEW IS ALREADY CHEAPER THAN THE OLD.

THE NEW, CLEAN IS ALREADY FOR ESSENTIALLY ELECTRIC, IF YOU LOOK AT THE COST OVER THE LIFETIME.

OIL, GAS AND COAL WILL BE PEAKING IN THIS DECADE, BUT DO NOT GET ME WRONG, IT IS NOWHERE NEAR FAST ENOUGH.

PEAKING IS NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH.

WE NEED TO NOT JUST HAVE A TURNING POINT, WE NEED A TIPPING POINT ON EMISSIONS, SO IT REALLY GOES DOWN VERY RAPIDLY, AND THAT IS THE POLITICAL CHALLENGE THAT WE FACE.

WHAT WE DO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT THIS IS A GROWTH STORY, A GROWTH STORY OF THE 21ST CENTURY.

THESE INVESTMENTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WILL GIVE LOWER COST ENERGY AND CLEANER AIR AND STOP KILLING PEOPLE ON A MASSIVE SCALE, AND THEY WILL BE IN THE AREAS WITH STRONG INNOVATION.

ENERGY EFFICIENCY WILL BE MUCH STRONGER.

THIS IS A PART OF THE AGREEMENT, AND EFFICIENCY AND PRODUCTIVITY IS GROWTH.

SO MUCH OF THIS IS A GROWTH STORY BUT YOU HAVE TO INVEST TO GET IT.

SO THE CHALLENGE IS CREATING THE CONDITIONS WHERE THAT INVESTMENT CAN TAKE PLACE, AND WE ARE CLOSE TO DOING THAT, BUT WE ARE NOT THERE YET.

AND I THINK THIS AGREEMENT WILL HELP ACCELERATE THE WHOLE INVESTMENT PROCESS AND HELP REALIZE THIS NEW GROWTH STORY, WHERE WE HAVE CITIES WHERE WE CAN LIVE AND BREATHE, AND ECOSYSTEMS WHICH ARE ROBUST.

IT WILL NOT BE EASY AND WILL NEED A LOT OF INVESTMENT, BUT I HOPE WE WILL ACCELERATE AND THE AGREEMENT WILL HELP IT ALONG.

CHRISTIANE: FINALLY, YOUR VERDICT ON THE FACT THIS HAPPENED IN DUBAI IN THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, AND AN ENERGY PRODUCING ENVIRONMENT, AND THE OFFICIAL OIL EXECUTIVE WHO PRESIDED OVER IT, THE PRESIDENT OF COP 28, WAS UNDER THE MICROSCOPE -- I THINK THERE WAS CYNICISM ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD DELIVER -- SO YOUR VERDICT ON HOW HE HANDLED COP, AND IS THERE THE FACT THAT IT CAME FROM THAT KIND OF NATION, DOES IT PUT AN EXTRA IMPETUS ON THOSE NATIONS AND INDUSTRIES TO STEP UP?

GUEST: I THINK IT HELPED THAT IT CAME FROM THE EMIRATES, A MAJOR OIL AND GAS COMPANY.

I HAVE KNOWN THIS WOULD COME FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS, -- I HAD KNOWN HIM FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS, AND HE INVITED ME TO THEIR QUEEN CITY IN THE EMIRATES AND TOOK ME AROUND THAT PERSONALLY.

THAT WAS 15 YEARS AGO, SO HIS COMMITMENT TO THE LOW CARBON AND SUSTAINABLE AND CLEAN IS LONG-STANDING.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE IS ALSO THE CHAIR AND THE HEAD OF THE OIL COMPANY OF THE UAE OF ABU DHABI, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST OIL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD.

SO BOTH OF THOSE ELEMENTS ARE THERE, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THESE COMMITMENTS TENANT ZERO HIS COMMITMENT TO STAYING BELOW 1.5 AND IS GENUINE.

IN THE END, IT PROBABLY HELPED THAT THAT WAS HIS BACKGROUND AND MADE IT SOMEWHAT EASIER.

I DID NOT KNOW THIS IN ADVANCE, BUT IT MADE IT SOMEWHAT EASIER FOR HIM TO STAND UP TO THE PRESSURES FROM OIL AND GAS, WERE CLEARLY THERE.

WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE HIS LEADERSHIP AS BEING VALUED.

CHRISTIANE: LORD NICOLA STURGEON, THANK YOU.

NOW TO ISRAEL, WHOSE WAR IN GAZA WILL CARRY ON WITH OR WITHOUT INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT.

ELI COHEN SAID THIS, AFTER FIGHTING WORDS FROM CHIEF ALLY PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHO SAID ISRAEL IS STARTING TO LOSE GLOBAL SUPPORT BY "INDISCRIMINATE BOMBINGS," AND THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY LOADING OVERWHELMINGLY TO DEMAND AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE.

ISRAEL'S LONG-TERM STRATEGY FOR THE FUTURE REMAINS UNCLEAR, INCLUDING THE FATE OF GAZA'S GOVERNORS AND THE POLITICAL PROCESS WHEN THE GUNS FIND [INDISCERNIBLE] WE SPOKE TO ONE AUTHOR AND I BEGAN BY ASKING HIM ABOUT THE MASSIVE DEATH TOLL AMONGST PALESTINIANS IN GAZA AND THE HAMAS SLAUGHTER OF ISRAELI CIVILIANS ON OCTOBER 7.

GUEST: NO ONE IS SAYING WE SHOULD MINIMIZE THE HURT AND THE PAIN AND THE SUFFERING OF THE ISRAELI CIVILIANS WHO WERE KILLED ON THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER.

THAT IS A QUESTION THAT THE UNITED NATIONS, ALMOST EVERYONE -- WITH EXCEPTION OF A FEW PEOPLE -- BUT THE QUESTION THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SHOULD REALLY CONTEMPLATE, IS WHAT HAPPENED.

IT JUSTIFIES THE KILLING OF PALESTINIANS.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS ON THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, IT JUSTIFIED THE KILLINGS OF WITHIN 7000 CHILDREN.

THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE IN GAZA.

1.9 MILLION PEOPLE IN GAZA OUT OF 2.2 HAVE BECOME DISPLACED.

CHRISTIANE: HOW IS IT THAT THIS CATASTROPHE WAS ABLE TO HAPPEN?

OBVIOUSLY, A MASS COMMITTED IT, BUT -- HAMAS COMMITTED IT, BUT DID THE U.S. TICKETS I OFF OF THE WAR?

GUEST: LET ME BE DIRECT, BIDENS FOREIGN POLICY DOES NOT DIFFER MUCH FROM TRUMP'S.

FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS NOT MADE ANY MAJOR INVESTMENT IN EITHER TRYING TO STOP THE BUILDING OF JEW SETTLEMENTS WERE TRYING TO BRING ABOUT THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE, AND THAT IS WHY NOT ONLY THE UNITED STATES COMMITTED CALAMITIES IN THE REGION, IN THE REGION, THIS IS SEEN AS BIDEN'S WAR.

IT IS NOT JUST BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

IT IS BIDEN'S, AND IT IS.

CHRISTIANE: SO THE U.S., YOU ARE SAYING, THAT, A, IT COULD TICKETS I OFF THE PALESTINIAN WALL AND NORMALIZE THAT DEALS WITH THE ARAB COUNTRIES WITH WHICH IT IS NOT AT WAR, AND THE SAME YOU COULD SAY FOR THE ARAB COUNTRIES, WHAT HAS SAUDI ARABIA DONE WITH IT UAE DONE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.S. SHOULD DO NOW?

WHAT SHOULD THE ARAB LEADERS DO?

GUEST: ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN PEACE IN THE HOLY LAND, ANYONE, SHOULD RECOGNIZE THAT THE SO-CALLED TWO STATE SOLUTION THAT THE U.S. HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT HAS BEEN REALLY PAYING LIP SERVICE AND HAS NOT PRODUCED ANYTHING.

IN FACT, WHILE THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT A TWO STATE SOLUTION, WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ON THE GROUND?

YOU NOW HAVE ALMOST ONE MILLION SETTLERS, ONE MILLION WHO LIVE IN OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN LANDS ON THE WEST BANK.

ISRAEL IS IN A RACE AGAINST TIME TO COLONIZE THE LAND, SO, IN FACT, THE TALK ABOUT A TWO STATE SOLUTION HAS BROUGHT ABOUT THE CONSOLIDATION OF ISRAEL'S MILITARY OCCUPATION.

GUESS WHAT?

THE UNDERMINING AND THE WEAKENING OF PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES.

CHRISTIANE: WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, MANY WHO SUPPORT PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD ARE ALSO SHOCKED.

THEY BELIEVE HAMAS NOT ONLY CREATED THE MOST DEPRAVED ATTACK ON CIVILIANS WE HAVE SEEN FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, I MEAN, DELIBERATE RAPES, SHOOTING IN THE GENITALS, KILLINGS OF CHILDREN, KIDNAPPING OF OLD PEOPLE, HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND CIVILIANS -- THE VERY CIVILIANS WHO ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS, ETC.

HAS HAMAS FINALLY AND FATALLY MISCALCULATED?

I KNOW YOU AND OTHERS SAY THAT IN A REESTABLISHED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, HAMAS HAS TO HAVE A VOICE.

BUT DO THEY HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY ANYMORE?

ARE THEY REALLY A RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, OR HAVE THEY TIPPED OVER THE LINE?

GUEST: THE MORAL AND ETHICAL QUESTION IS AT STAKE, RIGHT, AS YOU HAVE JUST SAID.

CAN WE SUSPEND THE MORAL AND ANGLE JUST FOR A SECOND AND SEE WHAT HAMAS HAS DONE?

JUST FOR A SECOND.

FROM A JEW STRATEGIC PERSPECTIVE, AS A REALIST, WHAT DID HAMAS DO ON THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER?

THEY KILLED A LOT OF CIVILIANS, ALMOST 900 CIVILIANS.

CHRISTIANE: AND THEY HAD 1200 DEAD.

GUEST: THE KILLING OF CIVILIANS, EVEN THOUGH ISRAEL HAS BEEN KILLING PALESTINIANS FOR YEARS, IN ONE STROKE, HAMAS HAS SHATTERED THE FALSE SECURITY OF ISRAEL.

HAMAS HAS SHATTERED THE STATUS QUO IN ONE STROKE.

HAMAS IN ONE STROKE HAS PUT PALESTINE ON THE REGION AND ON THE INTERNATIONAL AGENDA.

CHRISTIANE: I COVERED BOSNIA AND SAW WITH THE SERBS DID.

I NOTE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WAR AND MASSACRE OF CIVILIANS.

I KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS, AND I AM ALSO ASKING BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT OTHERS ARE ASKING, IF THE PALESTINIANS REALLY WANT A LEADERSHIP THAT CAN ENGAGE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD, HAS HAMAS NOT PUT ITSELF OUT OF THE CALLING OR BIDDING?

GUEST: WHAT THE PALESTINIANS WANT, AS I KNOW A BIT ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS, THEY WANT TO END OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

FREEDOM.

THE PALESTINIANS WANT DIGNITY, EMANCIPATION.

THE PALESTINIANS WANT THE END OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION.

IF YOU ASK ME NOW, WHO SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS?

IT IS SAD TO SAY IT, THOMAS NOW SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS -- HAMAS NOW SPEAKS FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

CHRISTIANE: STILL?

GUEST:GUEST: HAMAS SPEAKS TO THE HOPE FOR EMANCIPATION.

CHRISTIANE: THERE WERE A LOT OF PROTESTS AGAINST HAMAS BEFORE OCTOBER 7.

GUEST: OF COURSE BECAUSE HAMAS HAS BEEN MISMANAGED.

IT WAS NOT REALLY VERY POPULAR.

HAMAS IS MORE OF A PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC RESISTANCE MOVEMENT.

IT WAS NOT GOVERNED VERY WELL, BUT WHAT I AM SAYING WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS, THE FACT THAT HAMAS ATTACKED ISRAEL ON THE SEVENTH OF OCTOBER IS THE FIRST PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT THAT STOOD UP TO ISRAEL'S OCCUPATION, EVEN THOUGH IT SHOULD NOT HAVE KILLED, I MEAN, THE CIVILIANS, WE KNOW THAT.

THIS IS NOT JUST THOMAS.

EVEN THOUGH THEY KILLED -- THIS IS NOT JUST THOMAS.

ONE WRONG -- HAMAS.

ONE WRONG DOES NOT MAKE A RIGHT.

ISRAEL IS PART OF THE POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

CHRISTIANE: EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT -- I MEAN, THE DAY AFTER, WHO KNOWS WHEN THE DAY AFTER WILL BE, WE HAVE ALSO SEEN ARAB STATES, 80, TRY TO MAKE PEACE AND NORMALIZE --A, TRY TO MAKE PEACE, AND NORMALIZE WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING, AND THEY PUT THE PALESTINIANS ALMOST AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT IF I THOUGHT AT ALL, CERTAINLY, THE ARAB STATES HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A SOLUTION.

GUEST: THE ARAB STATES WANT THE UNITED STATES TO LEAD THE EFFORT BECAUSE ISRAEL DOES NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE ELSE EXCEPT THE UNITED STATES.

MOST OF THE ARAB STATES ARE ALLIES AND THEY DEPEND UPON ITS MILITARY SUPPORT.

THE REASON WHY GAZA -- AND FORGET ME AS A SCHOLAR OR ACADEMIC, GAZA NOW IS IN EVERY HOME, VILLAGE, EVERY STREET THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, IN ALGERIA, IRAQ, EGYPT, PEOPLE ARE ANGRY, AND THAT IS LIGHT ARAB REGIMES ARE TERRIFIED, THEY ARE TERRIFIED THERE CIVILITY IS AT STAKE, AND THEY ARE RELYING ON THE U.S. WE KNOW THE POSITION OF THE U.S. , THEY HAVE BASICALLY ABANDONED THEM TO ACCEPT A CEASE-FIRE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID USE VETO IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND WHAT YOU DO HAVE THE MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH SAYS NO CEASE-FIRE?

YOU HAVE A GREEN LIGHT.

CHRISTIANE: THIS AGAIN IS BUSINESS AS USUAL.

YOU KNOW THAT.

ALL THESE YEARS THERE HAS BEEN THIS DYNAMIC.

HOW DOES IT REALIGN OR ALL FALLOUT?

GUEST: THERE IS A BIGGER QUESTION FOR ME AS A STUDENT OF THE REGION, AND THE BIGGER QUESTION IS, TO WHAT EXTENT OF WHAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN DOING IN GAZA DEEPENS ITS EXISTENTIAL CRISIS?

CAN ISRAEL EVER BE AT PEACE WITH ITSELF AND ITS STATE?

WILL ISRAEL EVER BE INTEGRATED INTO THE REGION?

I NOT TALKING ABOUT TOP DOWN, I AM TALKING ABOUT SOCIETY TO SOCIETY.

THAT IS WHY WHAT AMERICANS AND ISRAELI LEADERS ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT, THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW ISRAEL CAN DESTROY HAMAS'S WISHFUL THINKING.

IN FACT, MY FEAR IS THAT HAMAS -- THAT ISRAEL IS BREAKING GAZA.

ISRAEL WILL OWN GAZA.

GAZA WILL COME TO HAUNT ISRAEL FOR MANY YEARS TO COME, IN THE SAME WAY THAT IRAQ HUNTED THE UNITED STATES AFTER THE U.S.

OCCUPATION.

CHRISTIANE: THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

GUEST: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

CHRISTIANE: A MAJOR NEW DEVELOPMENT IN AMERICA'S LEGAL BATTLE OVER ABORTION TODAY.

THE SUPREME COURT AGREED WHETHER TO CONSIDER TO NEXT RESTRICT ACCESS TO A WIDELY USED ABORTION PILL.

SINCE ROE V. WADE WAS OVERTURNED BY THE CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY LAST YEAR, THE NUMBER OF WOMEN USING THEM ROSE SIGNIFICANTLY, SO, WHAT IMPACT DOES THIS LEGAL HAGGLING HAVE ON AMERICAN WOMEN?

RETURN TO TEXAS AND TO THE CASE OF KATE COX, WHO TRIED TO WIN A LEGAL EXCEPTION TO HER STATE'S DRACONIAN BAN ON THE BASIS THAT HER TESTIMONY THREATENS HER OWN LIFE.

HERE SHE IS TALKING WITH NBC NEWS.

>> WE ARE STILL GOING THROUGH THE LOSS OF A CHILD.

THERE IS NO OUTCOME HERE THAT I TAKE HOME MY HEALTHY BABY GIRL, YOU KNOW?

SO IT IS HARD, YOU KNOW?

CHRISTIANE: THE STATE SUPREME COURT RULED AGAINST HER, WHO WAS FORCED TO LEAVE TEXAS FOR AN ABORTION PROCEDURE.

HER ATTORNEY IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE SPECIFIC CASE OF YOUR CLIENT AND THIS MAY AFFECT HER OR OTHERS LIKE HER IN THE FUTURE, WHAT DO YOU MAKE AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW THAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS IT WANTS TO TAKE ON THE MEDICAL ABORTION PROCESS?

GUEST: WELL, I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT WITH THESE TWO CASES HAVE IN COMMON, KATE COX'S AND THE U.S. SUPREME COURT TAKING UP THIS CASE, AND THAT IS THAT POLITICIANS AND COURTS ARE TRYING TO MICROMANAGE THE HEALTH CARE THAT PATIENTS ARE RECEIVING FROM THEIR DOCTOR.

IN KATE'S CASE, QUITE OBVIOUSLY, HER HEALTH WAS AT RISK.

SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT AND WAS TOLD THAT DUE TO TWO PRIOR C-SECTIONS, CONTINUING A PREGNANCY, WHICH WAS DOOMED TO END IN STILLBIRTH OR AT MOST A CHILD WHO WOULD LIVE FOR MINUTES, HOURS OR DAYS, SHE WAS TOLD THAT CONTINUING THAT PREGNANCY PUT HER FUTURE FERTILITY AT RISK.

INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO HER DOCTOR, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF TEXAS, THE HIGHEST LAW OFFICIAL IN THE STATE, DIRECTLY THREATENED HER DOCTOR, HER FAMILY, HOSPITALS, AND THE MEDICAL PROFESSION IN GENERAL, AND THAT ITSELF IS STUDIED.

YOU LOOK AT U.S. SUPREME COURT AND WHAT IT DID TODAY, AND, AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A WIDELY AVAILABLE MEDICATION ABORTION, AVAILABLE NATIONWIDE, WHICH HAS BEEN USED FOR DECADES, SAFELY, IN WHICH THE FDA APPROVED, AND WE HAVE HERE ANTI-ABORTION ADVOCATES STEPPING IN TO SAY, WE DON'T CARE HOW YOU OR YOUR DOCTOR CHOOSE TO EXPERIENCE YOUR MEDICAL FACILITIES, WE WANT TO INTERVENE AND TELL YOU WHAT TO DO, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK PEOPLE REALLY NEED TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THIS RULING WOULD APPLY NATIONWIDE.

IT WOULD IMPACT THE WAY THAT WOMEN AND PREGNANT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO ACCESS MEDICATION ABORTION, AND IT WOULD HAVE DEVASTATING EFFECTS ACROSS COUNTRY.

CHRISTIANE: WE WAIT TO SEE HOW THAT DEVELOPS IN THE COURT.

HOW IS YOUR CLIENT?

GIVEN THE RISKS, WHAT MOTIVATED HER WHILE PREGNANT TO ACTUALLY START THIS LEGAL BATTLE, AND WHERE DOES IT STAND NOW?

GUEST: WELL, I WANT TO REWIND THE CLOCK A LITTLE BIT FOR YOUR VIEWERS AND THINK ABOUT WHAT THE LAST TWO WEEKS OF KATE COX'S LIFE HAVE BEEN LIKE.

WHAT WE HAVE IS THAT THE SAME DAY WE WERE ARGUING ANOTHER CASE IN THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT, WHICH IS SEEKING TO CLARIFY WHAT THE MEDICAL EXCEPTION TO THE STATE'S ABORTION BANDS MEAN, IF IN FACT IT MEANS ANYTHING, IS THAT MISS COX RECEIVED THE WORST NEWS OF HER LIFE, WHICH WAS THAT CONFIRMING PRIOR TESTING, SHE WAS TOLD HER BABY WOULD NEVER BECOME A SIBLING TO HER OLDER CHILDREN.

SHE REACHED OUT TO A LAWYER AND FILED A LAWSUIT.

SHE HAD A COURT SAY, YES, INDEED, YOUR ABORTION IS MEDICALLY NECESSARY, AND SHE SAW THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THREATENING HER AND HER FAMILY, AND THEN THAT ORDER WAS PUT ON HOLD, AND THEN THREE AGONIZING DAYS AS SHE WAITED TO HEAR MORE FROM THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT TO HEAR ABOUT THERE NOT THE HEALTH CARE SHE DESPERATELY NEEDED, WHICH IN THIS CASE WAS AN ABORTION, WOULD BE ABLE TO PROCEED, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, ONE WEEK IS A SHORT TIME FOR A COURT, BUT A LONG TIME FOR A PERSON IN THE MIDDLE OF A MEDICAL EMERGENCY.

SHE HAS BEEN VERY RESILIENT THROUGH THIS WHOLE PROCESS, BUT I JUST WANT FOLKS TO PUT THEMSELVES IN HER SHOES AND THINK ABOUT HOW THEY WOULD FEEL IF POLITICIANS AND THEIR STATE WERE MICROMANAGING THE DECISIONS THEIR DOCTORS ARE MAKING.

CHRISTIANE: HAS SHE HAD THE PROCEDURE, ARE YOU ABLE TO SAY?

GUEST: I DO NOT WANT TO SPEAK IN DETAILS ABOUT HER HEALTH CARE, JUST FOR HER OWN SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF HER POSITIONS, BUT I TELL YOU THAT SHE IS DOING WELL AND HAS BEEN SO ENCOURAGED, AS HAVE I ASKED HER ATTORNEY, AND HER WHOLE EAGLE TEAM, TO SEE THE OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT FROM PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ACROSS THE WORLD SCENE WE AGREE WITH YOU, KATE.

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AS A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION.

I AM REALLY JUST FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT SHE IS SAFE, HEALTHY, AND THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO HER DOES NOT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

CHRISTIANE: LET ME JUST ASK THIS BECAUSE YOU RAISE THE ISSUE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAVING DENIED AND REVERSED WHAT THE COURT GAVE HER, TRUSTEE AGREEMENT THAT SHE HAD A LIFE-THREATENING ISSUE, THAT THEY ACCEPTED HER DR.'S, YOU KNOW, CONFIRMATION OF THAT MATTER, AND HE REVERSED THAT.

I MEAN, IF THE STATE GIVES YOU THE RIGHT, THEY PUT THAT EXEMPTION IN A VERY DRACONIAN ALMOST TOTAL BAN IN TEXAS, AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DOES NOT ACCEPTED, WHAT LEGAL SENSE DOES THAT ACTUALLY MAKE BASED ON WHAT EXACTLY?

AND A COMPANION QUESTION IS, GIVEN THE VIGILANTE LAWS IN TEXAS, WHICH, APPARENTLY, CAN SENTENCE A SO-CALLED COLLABORATOR IN ABORTION, I.E., HUSBAND, DRIVER OR DOCTOR, TO 99 YEARS, AND A MASSIVE FINE, HOW SAFE IS KATE AND HER HUSBAND RIGHT NOW?

CAN THEY RETURN TO TEXAS?

GUEST: THERE IS A LOT TO UNPACK THERE, SO LET ME TAKE IT ONE AT A TIME.

I MEAN, THE FIRST THING THAT I WANT TO EMPHASIZE IS THAT IF KATE DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR AN ABORTION UNDER THE EXCEPTIONS, THEN WHO DOES?

THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND.

ABORTION EXCEPTIONS IN THESE BANS ARE NOT FUNCTIONING THE WAY PEOPLE ARE ASSUMING THEY ARE.

YOU TRULY HAVE TO BE AT DEATH'S DOOR BEFORE YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR AN ABORTION, AND THAT IS NOT A REASONABLE OR PRACTICAL OR HUMANE WAY TO PRACTICE MEDICINE, SO THAT IS THE FIRST THING.

THE SECOND IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EXTREME PENALTIES, AS YOU SAY, LIFE IN PRISON, LOSS OF MEDICAL LICENSE, AND HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF FINES FOR THE DOCTOR.

THAT IS WHY PHYSICIANS ARE TERRIFIED TO RELY ON THESE EXCEPTIONS.

WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS INSTEAD OF KATE'S DOCTOR BEING ABLE TO PRACTICE MEDICINE, HAVE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SECOND GUESSING HER DOCTOR'S JUDGMENT AND SAYING, NO, NO, WE DON'T THINK KATE IS SICK ENOUGH, BUT AS TO THE SAFETY OF KATE AND HER FAMILY, I DO WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR MONITORING ON THE PART OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND OTHER POLITICIANS IN THE STATE ABOUT THE VIGILANTE LAW IN TEXAS, AND WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME AS A LAWYER IS THAT KATE AND HER FAMILY ARE NOT AT RISK FROM TRAVELING OUT OF STATE.

THAT IS BECAUSE TEXAS CANNOT SAY TO COLORADO OR MASSACHUSETTS OR CALIFORNIA THAT THEY GET TO CONTROL WHAT IS LEGAL IN THEIR BARRIER, SO WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS NOT GOING TO COME AFTER KATE AND HER FAMILY, BUT WE DO WANT TO EMPHASIZE HOW DISASTROUS THIS IS FOR WOMEN, FAMILIES, PREGNANT PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THEIR DOCTORS, WHO ARE SAYING IN ONE VOICE, WE ARE IN CRISIS.

CHRISTIANE: THIS CASE REALLY FRAMES THAT INCREDIBLY.

MOLLY DUANE, THANK YOU.

AS WE SAID, ABORTION HAS BEEN CENTRAL TO AMERICAN POLITICS EVER SINCE ROE V. WADE GAVE WOMEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE BACK IN 1973 AND THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNING IT WOULD BE A MAJOR ISSUE IN THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

LIZ IS A GOP STRATEGIST AND JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN -- MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE FALLOUT AT THE BALLOT BOX FOR AMERICANS.

MICHEL: THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

YOUR PIECE WAS CALLED " REPUBLICANS ARE FINDING OUT THAT PRO-LIFE MEANS A LOT OF THINGS TO A LOT OF PEOPLE," DO THEY REALLY NOT KNOW?

GUEST: I THINK THEY GENUINELY DID NOT KNOW.

I HAVE CONSIDERED MYSELF TO BE IN A LUCKY POSITION BECAUSE OF THE WEIGHT I ANSWERED REPUBLICAN POLITICS WAS THROUGH THE BLOCK IS FEAR, WHICH MEANT -- BLOGOSP HERE, WHICH MEANT I WAS GETTING PAID TO ARGUE POLICY WITH PEOPLE ONLINE, ALL DAY, IN COMMENT SECTIONS, DIARIES, COUNTER POSTS, AND WHATNOT.

I FEEL LIKE I GOT TO 2006 AND 2007 BECAUSE I HAD A LOT OF DEBATES WITH PEOPLE WHERE I WOULD RESENT MYSELF AS BEING I AM A MODERATELY PRO-CHOICE REPUBLICAN, AND I BELIEVE IT SHOULD BE LEGAL IN THE FIRST THREE MONTHS I DON'T SEE AN ALTERNATIVE.

I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT IMMEDIATELY WHEN I INTRODUCED MYSELF THAT WAY, THEN PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, YOU ARE PRO-LIFE.

OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, OH MY GOD, YOU ARE HEATHEN.

ALL OF IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED FROM DAY ONE, OR OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE, HOW CAN YOU BE ANTI-ROE AND I AM STILL PRONE EVERYTHING ELSE?

IT HAS BEEN EVIDENT FOR YEARS NOW FOR WHAT REPUBLICANS HAVE TREATED AS PRO-LIFE WAS LARGELY A COLLECTION OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT THINK THAT ROE WAS CORRECTLY DECIDED BUT THEY DID NOT AGREE WITH THE UNDERLYING POLICY AND WHAT IT SHOULD BE.

AND NOW WE HAVE TO CONFRONT THAT.

IT TURNS OUT IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE PARTY AND WE ARE FINDING OUT THAT THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS, I THINK, SIGNIFICANTLY MORE ABORTION FRIENDLY THAN WHAT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS HAVE THOUGHT AND HOPED FOR AND ARE COMFORTABLE WITH.

YOU SAY YOU ARE MODERATELY PRO-CHOICE, BUT YOU ARE ANTI-ROE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

GUEST: I THINK ROE WAS INCORRECTLY DECIDED.

THAT GOES BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL WHEN WE DID CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATES.

AS SOMEONE AT THAT TIME HE WAS 15, HAVING THE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING FRIENDS GETTING PREGNANT AND HAVING TERMINATIONS, I WAS EXCITED WHEN I GOT TO BE ON THE PRO-ROE TEAM, THE PROBLEM CAME WHEN I ACTUALLY READ THE DECISION AND IT READ COUNTER ARGUMENTS TO IT, LEGAL COUNTER ARGUMENTS, NOT THINGS THAT WERE -- WHERE AT WHAT POINT DOES LIFE EXIST?

JUST STRAIGHT LEGAL ARGUMENTS.

I JUST THOUGHT THE DECISION WAS REALLY BADLY WRITTEN UP AND MADE LITTLE SENSE FROM A CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS.

BEING SOMEBODY WHO DID GO ON TO BECOME A LAWYER, MY VIEW HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT ROE WAS INCORRECTLY DECIDED, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT SPECIFICALLY THINKING ABOUT THE KINDS OF SITUATIONS THAT MY FRIENDS WERE CONFRONTING, I DO NOT KNOW HOW YOU LEGISLATE TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE IN THOSE SITUATIONS CAN HAVE ABORTIONS UNLESS YOU HAVE A POLICY LIKE THE ONE THAT I GUESS I WOULD SAY I THINK MOST STATES WOULD BE WELL ADVISED TO ADOPT, WHICH IS KEEP IT LEGAL THE FIRST THREE MONTHS AND STOP IT AFTER THAT WITH EXCEPTIONS WHERE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN JEOPARDY, RIGHT?

BUT EVEN THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE PRO-LIFE THAN IT TURNS OUT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS PRO-LIFERS HELD THAT POSITION FOR YEARS.

MICHEL: WHAT IS THAT POSITION THAT YOU ARE SAYING SURPRISES YOU?

GUEST: WHAT I AM SURPRISED TO LEARN IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS OF WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO OR VARIOUS ELECTION RESULTS IN KENTUCKY, AND I TALKED TO PEOPLE, I AM FINDING THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO TRADITIONALLY DESCRIBES THEMSELVES AS BEING PRO-LIFE REPUBLICANS WHO THINK YOU CAN CUT IT OFF AFTER MONTH FIVE, EXCEPT WHERE THE MOTHER'S LIFE IS IN JEOPARDY, OR RAPE OR INCEST, BUT THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SORT OF LACKS AND ACCEPTING OF KEEPING ABORTION LEGAL AND EVEN WHAT I WOULD SAY.

MY POSITION IS IF YOU ARE ARGUING IT SHOULD BE LEGAL REALLY AT ALL, THAT PUTS YOU IN A POSITION WHERE I THINK YOU ARE MORE PRO-CHOICE THAN PRO-LIFE, BUT I THINK IT IS TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT THESE WORDS REALLY DON'T MEAN WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY MEANT.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO THOUGHT THAT WHEN PEOPLE SAID THEY WERE PRO-LIFE, IT WAS A FIRM CONCRETE STATEMENT, NOT SOMETHING ASPIRATIONAL, AND I THINK THEY REALLY BELIEVED THAT MEANT THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION, THAT EMBRYO, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT EMBRYO, THAT FERTILIZED EGG, THE FETUS, WHEN YOU GET TO THAT POINT, FROM DAY ONE, THAT WOULD BE PROTECTED, EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF IF YOU ARE A ONE EXCEPTION PRO-LIFER, WHERE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN JEOPARDY, IF YOU ARE A THREE LIFER, WHERE IT IS RAPE OR INCEST, AND THAT TURNS OUT IT IS A RELATIVELY SMALL PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES PRO-LIFE.

MICHEL: LET'S TALK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE NOW IN TERMS OF THE POLITICS AND THE STATES.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING OUT, VERY MUCH THE STORY OF THE MOMENT IS THIS YOUNG WOMAN IN TEXAS WHO IS ALREADY A MOM, 30 YEARS OLD, HAS TWO KIDS, HAD A WANTED PREGNANCY AND HAS NOW LEARNED THERE IS A FETAL ABNORMALITY, THE FETUS IS UNLIKELY TO LIVE AT ALL, AND HER HEALTH IS COMPROMISED, NOT JUST HER HEALTH, BUT HER ABILITY TO HAVE FUTURE CHILDREN IS COMPROMISED.

THAT IS THE ADVICE SHE HAS BEEN GIVEN.

OK, SO NOW A LOWER COURT HAS SAID SHE CAN HAVE AN ABORTION, BUT THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT SHE CANNOT.

SHE HAS LEFT THE STATE SO THAT SHE CAN HAVE THE PROCEDURE, AS SHE SAYS, TO PRESERVE HER FUTURE FERTILITY, BUT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE WILL HOLD DOCTORS TO ACCOUNT IN THIS STATE IF HE FELT THAT THEY MADE THE WRONG DECISION, AND YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS IS JUST LIKE -- WHAT DO YOU AS A PERSON WHO THINGS ABOUT THIS POLITICALLY AND MORALLY, HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

GUEST: I WILL START WITH THE POLITICAL SIDE BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THAT IS EASIER, WHICH IS KIND OF A TROUBLING THING TO SAY.

LOOK, POLITICALLY, I THINK ONE THING THAT THE TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO BUSINESS WITH SOONER RATHER THAN LATER IS THAT HIS ESTATE HAS BEEN MOVING IN A PURPLE DIRECTION REALLY FAST.

REALLY, REALLY FAST.

YOU HAVE SEEN A LOT OF INFLUX TO TEXAS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SOCIALLY MORE LIBERAL, BUT THEY DON'T LIKE THE TAX REGIMES YOU FIND IN BLUE STATES.

TEXAS DOES NOT HAVE PERSONAL INCOME TAX, FOR INSTANCE, SO IT IS APPEALING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

NONE OF THE THINGS KEN PAXTON WILL FIND, IN ADDITION TO OTHER LIABILITIES THAT HE HAS THAT WILL MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO RETAIN POLITICAL POWER IN TEXAS AS SUCH, I AM PRETTY SURE THAT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE ELECTORATE AS A WHOLE IS, HE IS IN THE SIGNIFICANT MINORITY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT HE AND OTHER TEXAS REPUBLICANS CHOOSE TO DO ABOUT THAT, THEIR CALL, NOT MINE, THEY HAD GOTTEN LUCKY IN SOME REGARDS BECAUSE AS TEXAS SHIFTS PURPLE, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN TEXAS HAS WEAK CANDIDATES, BUT I THINK THEY WILL END UP CONFRONTING THE REALITY, THE SAME AS J.D.

VANCE HAS -- MICHEL: THE OHIO SENATOR.

GUEST: J.D.

VANCE SAID THE ONLY POLITICAL TERRAIN THAT WOULD BE FRUITFUL FOR REPUBLICANS TO FIND ON WOOD TO STOP LATE-TERM ABORTION BUT MAKE SURE YOU HAVE EXCEPTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, HAVE THE PARTY BECOME THE PARTY OF STOPPING LATE-TERM ABORTIONS AND OFFERING EXCEPTIONS, WHICH IS SIMILAR TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID.

MORALLY, I DON'T FEEL I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE CASE TO MAKE A PERSONAL JUDGMENT HERE, SO I AM GOING TO DECLINE TO DO SO.

I WILL SAY THAT I DEFINITELY DO SEE A LOT OF ABORTIONS OR HEAR OF A LOT OF ABORTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT THERE THAT I PERSONALLY THINK ARE AVOIDABLE AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED, AND I DO THINK THAT THERE IS THE MORAL IMPERATIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-LIFE TO GO AND ADVOCATE FOR THAT AND LOOK AT CHANGING PARTS AND MINDS.

MICHEL: THE QUESTION I HAVE IS, WHAT IF THIS WOMAN DIES?

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO THEN?

GUEST: IT SOUNDS LIKE IF SHE HAS GONE OUT OF STATE TO HAVE THE ABORTION, PROBABLY THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING HAPPEN.

MICHEL: THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN HER CASE, SHE HAD THE FINANCIAL WHEREWITHAL AND EDUCATION TO REACH OUT TO AN ATTORNEY TO REPRESENT HER IN THIS CASE AND FELT SAFE IN GOING PUBLIC, WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T, BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE DOES DIE?

GUEST: THAT IS THE QUESTION BECAUSE AT SOME POINT, THAT COULD HAPPEN AND WE HAVE HAD SITUATIONS WHERE THINGS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT IN THE HEADLINES AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE MADE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS FACTUAL AND WHAT IS MADE UP, AND WE FOUND OUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT THE STORY WAS JUST AS BAD AS WHAT WE WERE LED TO BELIEVE FROM THE GET GO.

THOSE TYPES OF STORIES BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO LOOK DIFFERENTLY AT THE QUESTION, DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A STRINGENT REGIME?

LOOK AT OKLAHOMA RATHER THAN TEXAS BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION PRO-LIFE, OR DO YOU WANT TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT GOES TO THE MOMENT YOU ARE IN DELIVERY, LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE IN CERTAIN BLUE STATES?

THAT IS A HORRIBLE CHOICE THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE NOT GOING TO WANT TO CHOOSE EITHER ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

MICHEL: LAST MONTH, OHIO, WHICH HAS BEEN CONSIDERED A SWING STATE, BUT HAS GONE SOLIDLY FOR TRUMP, VOTED TO ENSHRINE ACCESS TO ABORTION IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT DID THAT SIGNAL TO YOU?

GUEST: I THINK IT SIGNALED, BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS LEGALLY, I DON'T THINK LEGISLATORS IN OHIO ARE EVEN CAPABLE OF ERODING THAT.

THAT IS NOW A FIRM CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION, SO OHIO'S ABORTION REGIME LOOKS CONSIDERABLY MORE LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE IN A VERY, VERY PROGRESSIVE STATE, A VERY, VERY COMFORTABLE WITH ABORTION STATE LIKE CALIFORNIA, AND THE STATE THAT IS REGULAR, LIKE OKLAHOMA, OR APPARENTLY ESTATE THAT IS NOT AS RED, LIKE -- A STATE THAT IS NOT AS RED, LIKE TEXAS, IF THAT HAPPENED IN OHIO, HOW ARE PRO-LIFE REPUBLICANS IN TEXAS READING THE TEA LEAVES AND HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING?

I WOULD NOT ENVY THEIR JOB.

MICHEL: YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PRO-LIFE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE STARTED TO BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH THE FACT THAT AMERICA'S MATERNAL MORTALITY RATE IS HORRIBLE FOR AN ADVANCED INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY WITH PRESUMABLY HEALTH CARE THAT IS, FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE BEST IN THE WORLD, BUT, FOR OTHER PEOPLE, NOT AT ALL.

IF A BLACK WOMAN WERE IN THIS SITUATION, SHE WOULD DIE.

BLACK WOMEN HAVE THE HIGHEST RATE OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP.

SO IF PEOPLE ARE PRO-LIFE, WHY IS THERE NOT MORE POLICY ON PREVENTING MOTHERS FROM DYING IN CHILDBIRTH?

GUEST: I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE ARE STARTING TO SEE.

ONE THING INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT BEFORE YOU HAD ROE GO AWAY, ALL THE ATTENTION WAS FOCUSED ON ABORTION BANDS AND WHAT WE COULD DO AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE HAD THIS INJUSTICE, AND IT CONFIRMED HOW THAT WOULD ADJUST THE CALCULUS ON THE COURT.

NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN OVERTURNED, I AM HEARING A LOT ABOUT LAWS TO TOUGHEN UP ON CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS FROM DADS, LIKE SINGLE MOMS CANNOT DO IT ALONE, AND THEY SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO DO IT ALONE.

AND IF WE ARE GOING TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT BEING IN A PRO-LIFE SOCIETY AND ADVOCATING FOR PRO-LIFE POLICY, THAT IS ONE THING WE CAN DO BECAUSE THE MORE THAT WOMEN FEEL THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUPPORTED FINANCIALLY, THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO CHOOSE ABORTION, AND I THINK THAT ALSO GOES TO MATERNAL HEALTH.

THAT IS SOMETHING I THINK HAS BEEN DISCUSSED IN THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY A LOT LESS HISTORICALLY, AND I THINK PART OF THAT IS WE HAVE HAD IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS A LOT MORE AND A LOT BETTER DATA ABOUT LOOKING AT MATERNAL HEALTH OUTCOMES.

PARTICULARLY, AS YOU SAY, AMONGST AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

RIGHT?

I FEEL LIKE IF WE WERE TALKING FIVE YEARS OR 10 YEARS AGO, WE JUST WERE NOT HEARING AS MUCH ABOUT THAT, AND I DON'T THINK THE DATA WAS AS GOOD.

INEVITABLY, THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE A FOCUS.

NOW, WE ARE IN A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THAT DATA AND GETTING CONCERNED AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT.

MICHEL: SO YOU ARE A CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST.

STRATEGIZE SOMETHING.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, DONALD TRUMP IS STILL THE FRONT RUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

THE PLATFORM FOR THE PARTY LAST TIME WAS BASICALLY LIKE HE SAID, LIKE WHATEVER HE SAID, DO YOU THINK THAT -- I MEAN, THAT IS WHAT IT WAS, RIGHT?

GUEST: IT IS TRUE.

I DON'T DISAGREE.

MICHEL: DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE EXPLICIT THIS YEAR?

IN 2024, SHOULD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SET OUT A PLATFORM AND SAY, THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVE?

GUEST: AS A GENERAL CONCEPT, I THINK PLATFORMS ARE IMPORTANT DOCUMENTS FOR PARTIES.

ALTHOUGH, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT VERY FEW CANDIDATES ARE GOING TO ADHERE TO THE PLAT ROOMS.

-- PLATFORMS.

I WILL SAY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CONTINUING SUSTAINED LOSSES, LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO, AND THEN YOU HAVE STATES THAT A RELATIVELY RED, HAVING ABORTION REGIMES THAT LOOK LIKE CALIFORNIA, FOR THOSE PEOPLE, HAVING A PLATFORM IN 2024 THAT IS LIKE WHATEVER DONALD TRUMP SAID, THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A GREAT THING FOR THEM BECAUSE IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT WE KNOW, I AM NOT A TRUMP FAN, I HAVE NO INTENTION OF VOTING FOR HIM OR JOE BIDEN IN 2024, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE KNOW ONE THING IS THAT MOST REPUBLICANS REALLY DO THINK WHATEVER TRUMP SAYS IS PRETTY MUCH WHAT THEY SHOULD GO WITH AND WHATEVER POLICY THEY WANT TO ADOPT.

IF DONALD TRUMP SAYS THIS GUY IS PINK, PROBABLY A SOLID 81% OF REPUBLICANS WILL SAY, YEAH, IT IS PINK.

THIS IS ONE AREA WHERE TRUMP TAKING THE POSITION HE IS TAKING MIGHT ACTUALLY TURN OUT TO BE POLITICALLY BENEFICIAL FOR THE PARTY, CERTAINLY A LOT MORE BENEFICIAL THAN HIM SPENDING THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN TALKING ABOUT HOW HE THINKS THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

MICHEL: WHAT IS HIS POSITION?

GUEST: IT HAS NEVER BEEN 100% CLEAR, BUT HE THINKS THE POSITION THAT RON DESANTIS HAS TAKEN HIS WAY TO STRICT.

I BELIEVE HE HAS USED HARSH WORDS, LIKE HE HAS USED THE WORDS HARSH AND MAYBE DRACONIAN, BUT SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, BUT BASICALLY WHAT TRUMP IS SAYING, LOOK US ONLY ON BANNING LIFE TERM, AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE EXCEPTIONS.

SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE LIFE OF THE MOTHER, RAPE, INCEST, AND MY SUSPICION IS THAT IF YOU PUSHED HIM ON IT, WHILE DONALD TRUMP IS CERTAINLY NO MASTER OF LEGAL WORDSMITHING OR DRAFTING, MY SUSPICION IS IF YOU PUSHED HIM ON IT, HE WOULD PROBABLY WANT SOME SORT OF A HEALTH EXCEPTION IN THERE, TOO, BECAUSE I THINK HE PROBABLY WORRIES, AS WITH THIS TEXAS CASE, WHERE YOU HAVE A LIFE OF THE MOTHER EXCEPTION, THAT MIGHT NOT QUITE PROVIDE CLARITY TO ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS ONE, AND THAT IS, AS A LAWYER, THAT IS ONE OF THE PITFALLS THAT I THINK THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT FACES WITH THINGS LIKE WHAT WAS PUT ON THE BALLOT IN OHIO.

DRAFTING THIS STUFF CAN BE REALLY TOUGH, AND WRITING POLICY IN A WAY SO YOU DON'T INADVERTENTLY PREVENT SOMEONE WHO YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO ABORTION, IS INCREDIBLY FRAUGHT AND PERIL.

MICHEL: WHICH DO THE DEMOCRATS DO?

GUEST: IF THE DEMOCRATS ARE SMART, THEY WOULD LIKE TO TEE UP AS MANY CONSTITUTIONAL BALLOT MEASURES AS THEY CAN ON THIS ISSUE.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT WHERE THEY TEARED UP IN THE LANGUAGE ON THE PRO-LIFE SIDE OF THE EQUATION IS SUFFICIENTLY STRICT, WHICH I THINK IT TENDS TO BE.

IT COULD BE MORE THAN THE ELECTORATE ACTUALLY IS MORE PERMISSIVE THAN I PERSONALLY WOULD BE, THEY DO SEEM TO SEE SOME GAINS, AND THIS DOES SEEM TO BE SOMETHING THAT CAN DRIVE TURNOUT FOR THEM.

PERSONALLY, I HOPE THEY DON'T LISTEN TO THE WORD OF THIS AND THAT THEY DROP THE ISSUE.

I WOULD VERY MUCH HOPE WE DON'T SEE MORE STATES EMULATE THE EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN CALIFORNIA, WHICH PRETTY MUCH UNTIL YOU ARE IN THAT DELIVERY ROOM, YOU CAN TERMINATE, AND I THINK THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING FOR A MORAL -- FROM A MORAL OR ETHICAL STANDPOINT.

FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, IF YOU PRESENT PEOPLE WITH A CHOICE BETWEEN A TEXAS OR OKLAHOMA AND CALIFORNIA STYLE LEGAL REGIME, EVEN PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES PRO-LIFE OLD VOTE FOR THE CALIFORNIA LEGAL REGIME.

MICHEL: THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

GUEST: THANK YOU.

CHRISTIANE: CRUCIAL INSIGHT.

FINALLY TONIGHT, I MADE MY FAMILY DISAPPEAR, THE FAMOUS WORDS OF YOUNG KEVIN MCALLISTER IN "HOME ALONE."

NOW, IMMORTALIZED, AS HAS BEEN SELECTED FOR AMERICA'S NATIONAL FILM REGISTRY.

THIS YEAR'S SELECTION INCLUDES HISTORIC TREASURES, SUCH AS THE 1995 CLASSIC "APOLLO 13."

I SPOKE WITH TOM HANKS, THE STAR OF THAT FILM, THIS MONTH AS THE "MOONWALKERS" RIGHT HERE IN LONDON.

TOM: "APOLLO 13," THAT IS A STORY THAT IS RIPPED RIGHT OUT OF THE GREAT SAGAS OF ALL OF HUMANKIND.

CHRISTIANE: CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL THE FILMS SELECTED.

EACH CELEBRATING GREAT HUMAN SAGAS IN THEIR OWN UNIQUE WAY.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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