[soft electronic music] [soft electronic music] >> THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS >> THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM.

WHAT THEY SEEM.

I'VE ALWAYS ENJOYED I'VE ALWAYS ENJOYED USING BEAUTY USING BEAUTY AND SEDUCTION AND SEDUCTION AS A WAY OF ENGAGING PEOPLE.

AS A WAY OF ENGAGING PEOPLE.

>> I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE >> I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE WHAT LOOKED LIKE ART.

WHAT LOOKED LIKE ART.

I THOUGHT, NO, I WANT TO MAKE I THOUGHT, NO, I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE-- SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE-- YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WOULD YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WOULD UNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE IT'S-- UNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE IT'S-- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU KNOW, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S FROM A MOVIE, IT'S FROM A MOVIE, AND MAYBE I SAW THAT MOVIE.

AND MAYBE I SAW THAT MOVIE.

>> I'M NOT TRYING >> I'M NOT TRYING TO SATISFY AN AUDIENCE.

TO SATISFY AN AUDIENCE.

MY RESPONSIBILITY MY RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE IDEAS.

>> ODILE AND ODETTE >> ODILE AND ODETTE IS BASED ON SWAN LAKE.

IS BASED ON SWAN LAKE.

THE WHITE SWAN IS TRYING THE WHITE SWAN IS TRYING TO GET MARRIED TO THE PRINCE.

TO GET MARRIED TO THE PRINCE.

AND THE BLACK SWAN AND THE BLACK SWAN IS THE MAGICIAN'S DAUGHTER, IS THE MAGICIAN'S DAUGHTER, WHO IS TRYING TO TAKE WHO IS TRYING TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE WHITE SWAN.

WHAT I'VE DONE WITH WHAT I'VE DONE WITH ODILE AND ODETTE ODILE AND ODETTE IS TO BLUR THE BOUNDARIES IS TO BLUR THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN THE BADDIE BETWEEN THE BADDIE AND THE GOOD ONE.

AND THE GOOD ONE.

I'VE MADE THEM INTO ONE PERSON.

I'VE MADE THEM INTO ONE PERSON.

THEY ARE ONE, THEY ARE ONE, BUT THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

BUT THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT THAT AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT THAT FILM IS ABOUT.

FILM IS ABOUT.

I'VE ALWAYS ENJOYED I'VE ALWAYS ENJOYED USING BEAUTY AND SEDUCTION USING BEAUTY AND SEDUCTION AS A WAY OF ENGAGING PEOPLE AS A WAY OF ENGAGING PEOPLE WITH THE WORLD.

WITH THE WORLD.

MY FIGURES, ACTUALLY, ARE MY FIGURES, ACTUALLY, ARE OF MIXED RACE.

OF MIXED RACE.

THEY'RE NEITHER WHITE NOR BLACK.

THEY'RE NEITHER WHITE NOR BLACK.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF FACIAL FEATURES ANY KIND OF FACIAL FEATURES THAT WOULD MAKE YOU THAT WOULD MAKE YOU IDENTIFY THEM RACIALLY.

IDENTIFY THEM RACIALLY.

IT'S ALSO A DEVICE THAT MANAGES IT'S ALSO A DEVICE THAT MANAGES TO MAKE THE PIECES POST-RACIAL.

IT'S ALSO A JOKE ABOUT IT'S ALSO A JOKE ABOUT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, WHEN THE ARISTOCRACY WHEN THE ARISTOCRACY HAD THEIR HEADS GUILLOTINED.

I'M VERY FASCINATED BY CLASS I'M VERY FASCINATED BY CLASS IN MY WORK.

IN MY WORK.

AND I LIKE THE IDEA AND I LIKE THE IDEA OF PARODYING OR MIMICKING OF PARODYING OR MIMICKING THE NOTION OF CLASS.

THE NOTION OF CLASS.

MY LINEAGE WITHIN MY LINEAGE WITHIN THE NIGERIAN CONTEXT THE NIGERIAN CONTEXT IS QUITE ARISTOCRATIC.

MY GREAT-GREAT-GRANDFATHER MY GREAT-GREAT-GRANDFATHER WAS A NIGERIAN CHIEF.

WAS A NIGERIAN CHIEF.

MY FATHER IS A LAWYER.

MY FATHER IS A LAWYER.

SO I GREW UP, REALLY, SO I GREW UP, REALLY, IN A FAIRLY AFFLUENT SITUATION, IN A FAIRLY AFFLUENT SITUATION, BECAUSE I DIDN'T GROW UP BECAUSE I DIDN'T GROW UP FEELING INFERIOR TO ANYONE, FEELING INFERIOR TO ANYONE, YOU KNOW, SO I COULDN'T QUITE YOU KNOW, SO I COULDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND THE HIERARCHY OF RACE UNDERSTAND THE HIERARCHY OF RACE IN THIS COUNTRY, IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT WAS SOMEWHAT BECAUSE IT WAS SOMEWHAT SORT OF ALIEN TO ME.

ALTHOUGH THE FABRICS ALTHOUGH THE FABRICS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH AFRICA, ARE ASSOCIATED WITH AFRICA, THEY HAVE THEIR ORIGINS THEY HAVE THEIR ORIGINS IN INDONESIA.

IN INDONESIA.

THE DUTCH STARTED TO PRODUCE THE DUTCH STARTED TO PRODUCE THE FABRICS INDUSTRIALLY THE FABRICS INDUSTRIALLY FOR THE INDONESIAN MARKETS, FOR THE INDONESIAN MARKETS, I GUESS, TOWARDS THE END I GUESS, TOWARDS THE END OF THE 19TH CENTURY.

OF THE 19TH CENTURY.

THE INDUSTRIALLY PRODUCED THE INDUSTRIALLY PRODUCED VERSIONS ARE NOT SO POPULAR VERSIONS ARE NOT SO POPULAR IN INDONESIA.

IN INDONESIA.

SO THEY TRIED WEST AFRICA.

SO THEY TRIED WEST AFRICA.

I LIKE THE FACT THAT THE FABRICS I LIKE THE FACT THAT THE FABRICS ARE MULTILAYERED.

ARE MULTILAYERED.

THEY HAVE THIS INTERESTING THEY HAVE THIS INTERESTING HISTORY THAT GOES BACK HISTORY THAT GOES BACK TO INDONESIA.

TO INDONESIA.

AND THEN THEY'RE APPROPRIATED AND THEN THEY'RE APPROPRIATED BY AFRICA AND NOW REPRESENT BY AFRICA AND NOW REPRESENT AFRICAN IDENTITIES.

THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM.

WHAT THEY SEEM.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO-- AND, YOU KNOW, SO-- AND I SORT OF ENJOY WORKING-- AND I SORT OF ENJOY WORKING-- WORKING WITH THAT.

DID YOU SEE THE FRONT DID YOU SEE THE FRONT THE ECONOMIST?

THE ECONOMIST?

"WORLD ON THE EDGE."

"WORLD ON THE EDGE."

I AM INTERESTED IN THE I AM INTERESTED IN THE ARCHITECTS OF THE PRESENT ARCHITECTS OF THE PRESENT ECONOMIC DISASTER.

ECONOMIC DISASTER.

AND SO I WANT TO DEDICATE AND SO I WANT TO DEDICATE A DRAWING TO BEN BERNANKE A DRAWING TO BEN BERNANKE AND PAULSON AND PAULSON AND MILTON FRIEDMAN.

AND MILTON FRIEDMAN.

THE DRAWINGS ACTUALLY THE DRAWINGS ACTUALLY ALSO STARTED AS A RESULT ALSO STARTED AS A RESULT OF ISSUES AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE.

OF ISSUES AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE.

CLIMATE REALLY IS MORE FOR ME CLIMATE REALLY IS MORE FOR ME ABOUT THE ZEITGEIST, ABOUT THE ZEITGEIST, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO CAPTURE YOU KNOW, TRYING TO CAPTURE THE CLIMATE OF THE MOMENT.

THE CLIMATE OF THE MOMENT.

THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I DO THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I DO REALLY KIND OF OBJECTIVE THINGS.

REALLY KIND OF OBJECTIVE THINGS.

I TAKE THINGS OUT OF MAGAZINES I TAKE THINGS OUT OF MAGAZINES OR NEWSPAPERS.

OR NEWSPAPERS.

BUT THEN I DO INTUITIVE THINGS BUT THEN I DO INTUITIVE THINGS ALONGSIDE THAT.

WELL, THIS IS MY RETURN WELL, THIS IS MY RETURN TO DRAWING IN 12 YEARS... TO DRAWING IN 12 YEARS... 'CAUSE A LOT OF MY WORK TO DATE 'CAUSE A LOT OF MY WORK TO DATE IS IN MAINLY PAINTING, IS IN MAINLY PAINTING, SCULPTURE, SCULPTURE, PHOTOGRAPHY, PHOTOGRAPHY, AND FILM.

AND FILM.

I KIND OF WANTED TO GO BACK I KIND OF WANTED TO GO BACK TO BASICS, JUST DO SOME MORE TO BASICS, JUST DO SOME MORE INTIMATE THINGS.

INTIMATE THINGS.

I'VE DECIDED TO USE FLOWERS I'VE DECIDED TO USE FLOWERS AS THE STARTING POINT.

AS THE STARTING POINT.

AND THEN AGAINST THE FINANCIAL AND THEN AGAINST THE FINANCIAL SIDE, LITERALLY JUST USE PAGES SIDE, LITERALLY JUST USE PAGES FROM THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

FROM THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

THOSE ARE CUT OUT THOSE ARE CUT OUT INTO FLOWER SHAPES.

INTO FLOWER SHAPES.

AND THEN THOSE ARE COMBINED AND THEN THOSE ARE COMBINED WITH THE FABRICS, WITH THE FABRICS, THE BATIK I USE IN MY WORK.

THE BATIK I USE IN MY WORK.

THOSE ARE ALSO CUT INTO FLOWERS.

THOSE ARE ALSO CUT INTO FLOWERS.

SO IT'S A JUXTAPOSITION, SO IT'S A JUXTAPOSITION, IF YOU LIKE, IF YOU LIKE, OF NATURE OF NATURE AND CULTURE AND CULTURE AND JUST TRYING TO SEE AND JUST TRYING TO SEE IF THE DRAWINGS CAN BECOME IF THE DRAWINGS CAN BECOME MORE THAN THE CONTENTS.

IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE MORE FINANCIAL TIMES FLOWERS, MORE FINANCIAL TIMES FLOWERS, BUT, LIKE, DIFFERENT SIZES, BUT, LIKE, DIFFERENT SIZES, MAYBE LIKE YOU DID IN THERE.

MAYBE LIKE YOU DID IN THERE.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> YOU KNOW?

>> YOU KNOW?

[both laugh] >> PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME, >> PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME, YOU KNOW, "HOW MUCH WORK YOU KNOW, "HOW MUCH WORK DOES YINKA ACTUALLY DO?"

DOES YINKA ACTUALLY DO?"

HE'S QUITE A CONCEPTUAL ARTIST.

HE'S QUITE A CONCEPTUAL ARTIST.

AND FOR, YOU KNOW, CENTURIES, AND FOR, YOU KNOW, CENTURIES, PEOPLE HAVEN'T ALWAYS PEOPLE HAVEN'T ALWAYS MADE THEIR OWN WORK, PHYSICALLY.

MADE THEIR OWN WORK, PHYSICALLY.

THERE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN THERE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN TEAMS OF PEOPLE THAT WORK TEAMS OF PEOPLE THAT WORK ON THEM.

ON THEM.

WORKING WITH YINKA, WORKING WITH YINKA, IT'S QUITE A CREATIVE PROCESS IT'S QUITE A CREATIVE PROCESS TO BE ABLE TO ADAPT THE IDEAS TO BE ABLE TO ADAPT THE IDEAS THAT HE HAS THAT HE HAS AND INSERT YOUR OWN IDEAS.

AND INSERT YOUR OWN IDEAS.

AND HE ALLOWS FOR THAT.

THE SHOW IN SYDNEY THE SHOW IN SYDNEY WAS THE FIRST RETROSPECTIVE WAS THE FIRST RETROSPECTIVE OF ITS KIND.

OF ITS KIND.

IT WAS A SURVEY OF 12 YEARS IT WAS A SURVEY OF 12 YEARS OF YINKA'S WORK.

OF YINKA'S WORK.

SO IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING SO IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE ALL THESE WORKS TO SEE ALL THESE WORKS SIDE BY SIDE THAT HAD NEVER BEEN SIDE BY SIDE THAT HAD NEVER BEEN PULLED TOGETHER PULLED TOGETHER FOR MANY, MANY YEARS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS AND REALLY INTERESTING AND REALLY INTERESTING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE WORKS TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE WORKS FROM TODAY'S CONTEXT FROM TODAY'S CONTEXT AND WHERE THE WORK TODAY AND WHERE THE WORK TODAY IS GOING.

IS ABOUT OIL, IS ABOUT OIL, LITERALLY, LIKE, A SORT OF LITERALLY, LIKE, A SORT OF OIL SPLASH ON THE WALL.

OIL SPLASH ON THE WALL.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT I WAS THINKING ABOUT OIL BEING BLACK GOLD, OIL BEING BLACK GOLD, BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING A RARE COMMODITY.

A RARE COMMODITY.

I WAS ALSO THINKING PARTICULARLY I WAS ALSO THINKING PARTICULARLY ABOUT THE OIL IN NIGERIA.

WESTERN COMPANIES HAVE JUST WESTERN COMPANIES HAVE JUST TOTALLY DESTROYED TOTALLY DESTROYED THE FLORA AND FAUNA THE FLORA AND FAUNA OF THE AREA, OF THE AREA, AND THE RIVERS AND THE RIVERS ARE FULL OF OIL, GUNK, ARE FULL OF OIL, GUNK, AND IT'S JUST TOO SAD, AND IT'S JUST TOO SAD, YOU KNOW?

YOU KNOW?

IT'S JUST HORRIBLE.

IT'S JUST HORRIBLE.

SCRAMBLE FOR AFRICA SCRAMBLE FOR AFRICA IS BASED ON A CONFERENCE IS BASED ON A CONFERENCE THAT WAS HELD IN BERLIN THAT WAS HELD IN BERLIN IN 1884 TO 1885.

IN 1884 TO 1885.

THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES CAME TOGETHER TO DIVIDE UP CAME TOGETHER TO DIVIDE UP AFRICA TO DECIDE WHO WOULD HAVE AFRICA TO DECIDE WHO WOULD HAVE WHICH TRADING AREA.

WHICH TRADING AREA.

AND SO I RE-IMAGINED IT AND SO I RE-IMAGINED IT WITH THESE BRAINLESS MEN WITH THESE BRAINLESS MEN SITTING AROUND THE TABLE, SITTING AROUND THE TABLE, LITERALLY BRAINLESS.

LITERALLY BRAINLESS.

AND THEY'RE HAVING THIS MEETING AND THEY'RE HAVING THIS MEETING AND DECIDING THE FATE OF AFRICA.

WHEN I WAS 19, WHEN I WAS 19, I GOT A VIRUS IN MY SPINE, I GOT A VIRUS IN MY SPINE, WHICH LEFT ME WHICH LEFT ME COMPLETELY PARALYZED.

COMPLETELY PARALYZED.

I'VE BEEN GRADUALLY I'VE BEEN GRADUALLY RECOVERING FROM THAT.

>> DO YOU WANT TO GET RID OF IT?

>> DO YOU WANT TO GET RID OF IT?

>> DORIAN GRAY IS PROBABLY >> DORIAN GRAY IS PROBABLY THE POINT AT WHICH I FIRST THE POINT AT WHICH I FIRST TALKED ABOUT THE IDEAS TALKED ABOUT THE IDEAS OF DISABILITY IN MY WORK.

I PUT MYSELF IN THE SERIES I PUT MYSELF IN THE SERIES AS DORIAN GRAY.

AS DORIAN GRAY.

I WAS THINKING MORE ABOUT I WAS THINKING MORE ABOUT MY OWN MORTALITY MY OWN MORTALITY AND MY OWN INTERNAL CONFLICTS AND MY OWN INTERNAL CONFLICTS WITH VARIOUS KIND OF WITH VARIOUS KIND OF MORAL ISSUES, PERSONAL ISSUES MORAL ISSUES, PERSONAL ISSUES AND THE DIFFICULTY OF LIVING AND THE DIFFICULTY OF LIVING WITH MY OWN BODY, WITH MY OWN BODY, DIFFICULTY IN RELATION DIFFICULTY IN RELATION TO MY OWN KIND OF VANITY TO MY OWN KIND OF VANITY AS WELL.

AS WELL.

WHEN I WANTED TO WORK WHEN I WANTED TO WORK WITH PHOTOGRAPHY, WITH PHOTOGRAPHY, IT WAS OBVIOUS IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT I WOULD USE MYSELF THAT I WOULD USE MYSELF BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY, I AM CONCERNED UNFORTUNATELY, I AM CONCERNED WITH MYSELF OR, YOU KNOW-- WITH MYSELF OR, YOU KNOW-- I'M KIND OF SELF-OBSESSED, I'M KIND OF SELF-OBSESSED, LIKE MOST ARTISTS.

LIKE MOST ARTISTS.

AND YOU KNOW, SO NATURALLY, AND YOU KNOW, SO NATURALLY, I STARTED WORKING WITH MYSELF I STARTED WORKING WITH MYSELF AND USING MY OWN BODY AND USING MY OWN BODY TO SORT OF EXPRESS TO SORT OF EXPRESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO EXPRESS.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO EXPRESS.

DIARY DIARY OF A VICTORIAN DANDY.

OF A VICTORIAN DANDY.

THAT PIECE IS LOOSELY BASED THAT PIECE IS LOOSELY BASED A RAKE'S PROGRESS.

A RAKE'S PROGRESS.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT COMPLACENCY IT'S REALLY ABOUT COMPLACENCY WITH EXCESS.

WITH EXCESS.

POWER CREATES EXCESS.

POWER CREATES EXCESS.

AND WHAT'S MY RELATION AND WHAT'S MY RELATION TO EXCESS, TO EXCESS, AND HOW DO I PLAY WITH THAT?

OF COURSE, I COULD CHOOSE OF COURSE, I COULD CHOOSE TO POINT A FINGER AT IT, TO POINT A FINGER AT IT, BUT, YOU KNOW, I ALSO ACTUALLY BUT, YOU KNOW, I ALSO ACTUALLY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE TRAPPINGS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE TRAPPINGS OF WEALTH MYSELF, OF WEALTH MYSELF, EVEN THOUGH I MAY BE EVEN THOUGH I MAY BE CRITICIZING IT.

CRITICIZING IT.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO YOU HAVE TO GET THAT FEELING, SO YOU HAVE TO GET THAT FEELING, GIVE THE FEELING GIVE THE FEELING THAT THERE IS LIGHT THAT THERE IS LIGHT COMING FROM OUTSIDE.

COMING FROM OUTSIDE.

>> RIGHT.

>> RIGHT.

>> SEEING THE EARLY PIECES, >> SEEING THE EARLY PIECES, I CAN SEE THE JOURNEY I CAN SEE THE JOURNEY THAT I'VE MADE TO ARRIVE THAT I'VE MADE TO ARRIVE AT THE LATER PIECES.

AT THE LATER PIECES.

AND IT STARTS TO BECOME CLEARER AND IT STARTS TO BECOME CLEARER HOW I ACTUALLY MOVED HOW I ACTUALLY MOVED FROM PAINTING TO COSTUMES FROM PAINTING TO COSTUMES AND THEN TO PHOTOGRAPHY... AND THEN TO MOVING IMAGE.

AND THEN TO MOVING IMAGE.

YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS KIND OF LOGICAL KIND OF LOGICAL HOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

HOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

UN BALLO IN MASCHERA UN BALLO IN MASCHERA WAS ONE OF THE MOST EXHAUSTING WAS ONE OF THE MOST EXHAUSTING THINGS I'VE EVER DONE THINGS I'VE EVER DONE IN MY LIFE.

IN MY LIFE.

I HAD TO LEARN FAST.

I HAD TO LEARN FAST.

IT WAS MY FIRST FILM.

IT WAS MY FIRST FILM.

AND I HAD TO GO FROM AUDITIONING AND I HAD TO GO FROM AUDITIONING THE DANCER TO DESIGNING THE DANCER TO DESIGNING THE COSTUMES TO DOING THE COSTUMES TO DOING THE STORYBOARDS FOR THE FILM, THE STORYBOARDS FOR THE FILM, THEN WORKING, YOU KNOW, THEN WORKING, YOU KNOW, WITH A CINEMATOGRAPHER.

WITH A CINEMATOGRAPHER.

I MEAN, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I MEAN, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT STEADICAM WAS, YOU KNOW?

WHAT STEADICAM WAS, YOU KNOW?

I FOUND OUT.

I FOUND OUT.

AND I WORKED AND I WORKED WITH A CHOREOGRAPHER WITH A CHOREOGRAPHER CALLED LISA TORUN, CALLED LISA TORUN, WHO IS SWEDISH.

A SWEDISH KING, GUSTAV III, A SWEDISH KING, GUSTAV III, WAS FIGHTING WARS IN RUSSIA WAS FIGHTING WARS IN RUSSIA AND DENMARK.

AND DENMARK.

AND HIS PEOPLE WERE STARVING.

AND HIS PEOPLE WERE STARVING.

HE LOVED A LAVISH LIFESTYLE.

HE LOVED A LAVISH LIFESTYLE.

AND HE HAD THIS FONDNESS AND HE HAD THIS FONDNESS FOR MASKED BALLS.

FOR MASKED BALLS.

THERE WAS A PLOT THERE WAS A PLOT TO KILL HIM AT THE BALL.

TO KILL HIM AT THE BALL.

[gunshot] [gunshot] I ALWAYS IMAGINED I ALWAYS IMAGINED I WAS A VERY STRONG I WAS A VERY STRONG POLITICAL REPUBLICAN.

POLITICAL REPUBLICAN.

REPUBLICAN IS ANTIMONARCHY REPUBLICAN IS ANTIMONARCHY IN EUROPE.

IN EUROPE.

SO IT MEANS THAT YOU DON'T SO IT MEANS THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THE HEREDITARY SYSTEM LIKE THE HEREDITARY SYSTEM OF KINGS AND QUEENS.

MEMBER OF THE ORDER MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE IS AN AWARD OF MERIT IS AN AWARD OF MERIT GIVEN FOR SERVICES GIVEN FOR SERVICES TO ANY DISCIPLINE, REALLY, TO ANY DISCIPLINE, REALLY, YOU KNOW, FROM SCIENCE YOU KNOW, FROM SCIENCE TO ENGINEERING TO CHARITIES TO ENGINEERING TO CHARITIES TO THE ARTS.

TO THE ARTS.

AND I WAS GIVEN THIS AWARD AND I WAS GIVEN THIS AWARD FOR SERVICES TO THE ARTS.

WHAT I FIND IRONIC ABOUT IT WHAT I FIND IRONIC ABOUT IT IS THAT, ACTUALLY, MY WORK, IS THAT, ACTUALLY, MY WORK, ALL ALONG, HAS BEEN A CRITIQUE ALL ALONG, HAS BEEN A CRITIQUE OF EMPIRE.

SO MY ARTIST'S NAME NOW SO MY ARTIST'S NAME NOW IS YINKA SHONIBARE, MBE, IS YINKA SHONIBARE, MBE, SO MEMBER OF THE ORDER SO MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

[chuckles] >> WITH THIS PARTICULAR SERIES, >> WITH THIS PARTICULAR SERIES, I WAS REALLY SO STRUCK.

I WAS REALLY SO STRUCK.

IT WAS SUCH A CHANGE FOR ME IT WAS SUCH A CHANGE FOR ME TO SEE THEM REALLY BIG TO SEE THEM REALLY BIG FROM SEEING THEM FROM SEEING THEM JUST ON MY COMPUTER SCREEN, JUST ON MY COMPUTER SCREEN, BECAUSE SUDDENLY, BECAUSE SUDDENLY, THEY SEEMED MUCH MORE TRAGIC.

THEY SEEMED MUCH MORE TRAGIC.

THEY'RE KIND OF AGGRESSIVE THEY'RE KIND OF AGGRESSIVE BUT NOT EXACTLY AGGRESSIVE.

BUT NOT EXACTLY AGGRESSIVE.

AND THEN LET'S MOVE HER AND THEN LET'S MOVE HER TO THE LEFT.

TO THE LEFT.

YEAH, I THINK SHE YEAH, I THINK SHE LOOKS GOOD THERE.

LOOKS GOOD THERE.

I WONDER IF THESE TWO MAYBE...

THE ONES THAT WERE SUBTLE, THE ONES THAT WERE SUBTLE, THAT I THOUGHT, THAT I THOUGHT, "OH, IT LOOKS TOO MUCH LIKE ME.

"OH, IT LOOKS TOO MUCH LIKE ME.

I DON'T KNOW IF SHE'S REALLY I DON'T KNOW IF SHE'S REALLY THAT SUCCESSFUL THAT SUCCESSFUL AS A PIECE," AS A PIECE," JUST BECAUSE I THOUGHT, JUST BECAUSE I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW-- YOU KNOW-- I DON'T FEEL LIKE I'M I DON'T FEEL LIKE I'M LOST IN IT ANYMORE.

LOST IN IT ANYMORE.

BUT I JUST NOTICED THAT THEY BUT I JUST NOTICED THAT THEY JUST FELT LIKE SUCH REAL PEOPLE.

THE CINDY BOOK, THE CINDY BOOK, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN I STARTED IT.

WHEN I STARTED IT.

MAYBE I WAS SEVEN OR TEN.

MAYBE I WAS SEVEN OR TEN.

I'M NOT REALLY SURE.

I'M NOT REALLY SURE.

THERE ARE FAMILY SNAPSHOTS THERE ARE FAMILY SNAPSHOTS THAT ARE JUST STUCK THROUGHOUT.

THAT ARE JUST STUCK THROUGHOUT.

AND THEN I CIRCLED AND THEN I CIRCLED MYSELF IN THEM...

MYSELF IN THEM... AND WROTE, "THAT'S ME" AND WROTE, "THAT'S ME" UNDER EACH ONE.

AND I GUESS I KEPT IT UP AND I GUESS I KEPT IT UP FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS AND THEN FORGOT ABOUT IT AND THEN FORGOT ABOUT IT UNTIL COLLEGE, UNTIL COLLEGE, FOUND IT AND DECIDED, FOUND IT AND DECIDED, "OH, MAYBE I'LL UPDATE IT."

AT THAT POINT, I FAKED AT THAT POINT, I FAKED MAKING THE HANDWRITING MAKING THE HANDWRITING SEEM LIKE IT WAS GROWING UP SEEM LIKE IT WAS GROWING UP ALONG WITH THE FIGURE ALONG WITH THE FIGURE IN THE PICTURES.

IN THE PICTURES.

IT'S KIND OF AN INTERESTING IT'S KIND OF AN INTERESTING THING TO SEE YOURSELF, THING TO SEE YOURSELF, TO THINK THAT THAT'S TO THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY THE SAME PERSON NOW.

REALLY THE SAME PERSON NOW.

IT'S JUST INTERESTING IT'S JUST INTERESTING TO ALSO SEE YOUR EVOLUTION.

TO ALSO SEE YOUR EVOLUTION.

GROWING UP IN THE '50s GROWING UP IN THE '50s AND EARLY '60s, AND EARLY '60s, WOMEN DID WEAR A LOT OF MAKEUP.

WOMEN DID WEAR A LOT OF MAKEUP.

AND YET, YOU KNOW, AND YET, YOU KNOW, AS THE '60s AND THE '70s AS THE '60s AND THE '70s PROGRESSED, IT WAS ALL ABOUT PROGRESSED, IT WAS ALL ABOUT BEING NATURAL.

BEING NATURAL.

AND I SO I KIND OF MISSED AND I SO I KIND OF MISSED THE STUFF THE STUFF AND THE BEFORE AND AFTER, AND THE BEFORE AND AFTER, I GUESS, OF WHAT IT DOES TO YOU I GUESS, OF WHAT IT DOES TO YOU AND THE TRANSFORMATION.

AND THE TRANSFORMATION.

SO I THINK I WOULD SO I THINK I WOULD PLAY IN MY ROOM PLAY IN MY ROOM JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY, JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY, SEE WHAT MAKEUP COULD DO, SEE WHAT MAKEUP COULD DO, SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, BECOME A CHARACTER.

THE CLOWNS, I MEAN, THE CLOWNS, I MEAN, I LOVED THEM SO MUCH.

I LOVED THEM SO MUCH.

WELL, THE IDEA WAS, OKAY, WELL, THE IDEA WAS, OKAY, I'M MAKING THESE I'M MAKING THESE PICTURES OF CLOWNS, PICTURES OF CLOWNS, BUT I DON'T WANT IT BUT I DON'T WANT IT TO LOOK LIKE ME, TO LOOK LIKE ME, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT'S EASY ENOUGH BUT YOU KNOW, THAT'S EASY ENOUGH TO SAY WHEN YOU HAVE TO SAY WHEN YOU HAVE CLOWN MAKEUP ON.

CLOWN MAKEUP ON.

BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE ONE CLOWN BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE ONE CLOWN REALLY LOOK LIKE REALLY LOOK LIKE IT'S A DIFFERENT PERSON IT'S A DIFFERENT PERSON UNDERNEATH THE MAKEUP?

UNDERNEATH THE MAKEUP?

I WAS REALLY INSPIRED I WAS REALLY INSPIRED BY LOOKING ONLINE BY LOOKING ONLINE AT CLOWN SITES.

THEY'D HAVE TO BE, YOU KNOW, THEY'D HAVE TO BE, YOU KNOW, SINCERE PEOPLE THAT JUST SINCERE PEOPLE THAT JUST WANT TO BE HIRED TO ENTERTAIN WANT TO BE HIRED TO ENTERTAIN AT SOMEBODY'S BIRTHDAY PARTY.

AT SOMEBODY'S BIRTHDAY PARTY.

AND YET, YOU'RE LOOKING AND YET, YOU'RE LOOKING AT ALL THE VARIOUS FACES, AT ALL THE VARIOUS FACES, AND SOME OF THEM JUST LOOK LIKE, AND SOME OF THEM JUST LOOK LIKE, I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS PERSON-- I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS PERSON-- YOU KNOW, LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE, THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THEM THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THEM THAT JUST, LIKE, I DON'T TRUST THAT JUST, LIKE, I DON'T TRUST OR, LIKE, IS SUSPICIOUS OR, LIKE, IS SUSPICIOUS OR LIKE, "WHY ARE THEY A CLOWN?"

OR LIKE, "WHY ARE THEY A CLOWN?"

THE IDEA SORT OF CONTINUED, THE IDEA SORT OF CONTINUED, WHERE IT'S LIKE, SAY WHERE IT'S LIKE, SAY THE WHOLE WORLD THE WHOLE WORLD IS A WORLD OF CLOWNS, IS A WORLD OF CLOWNS, AS IF IT'S ANOTHER DIMENSION, AS IF IT'S ANOTHER DIMENSION, LIKE THE DIMENSION OF CLOWNS, LIKE THE DIMENSION OF CLOWNS, ANOTHER PLANET WHERE THEY ALL ANOTHER PLANET WHERE THEY ALL HAPPEN TO BE CLOWNS.

I WAS JUST EXPERIMENTING I WAS JUST EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS NEW CAMERA THAT I HAD WITH THIS NEW CAMERA THAT I HAD BECAUSE IT WAS DIGITAL.

BECAUSE IT WAS DIGITAL.

AND... AND... JUST SET SOME LIGHTS UP JUST SET SOME LIGHTS UP IN MY STUDIO AND JUST-- IN MY STUDIO AND JUST-- I THINK I WAS JUST I THINK I WAS JUST PLAYING AROUND.

PLAYING AROUND.

FIRST COUPLE THINGS I WAS DOING FIRST COUPLE THINGS I WAS DOING WERE EXPERIMENTING WITH WERE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS TAPE THAT YOU PUT ON THIS TAPE THAT YOU PUT ON YOUR SKIN TO, LIKE, YOUR SKIN TO, LIKE, PULL BACK YOUR WRINKLES.

PULL BACK YOUR WRINKLES.

SO I DID SOME TESTS WITH THAT SO I DID SOME TESTS WITH THAT AND THEN ADDED A WIG AND THEN ADDED A WIG AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AND THEN, YOU KNOW, KIND OF EVOLVED FROM THERE.

KIND OF EVOLVED FROM THERE.

AT THIS POINT, I HADN'T GONE AT THIS POINT, I HADN'T GONE SHOPPING FOR ANY OTHER COSTUMES.

SHOPPING FOR ANY OTHER COSTUMES.

SO I LIKED THIS RED SO I LIKED THIS RED POLKA-DOT SHIRT POLKA-DOT SHIRT SO I CONTINUED WORKING ON THAT.

SO I CONTINUED WORKING ON THAT.

AND IT TURNED INTO THIS AND IT TURNED INTO THIS OTHER SERIES.

OTHER SERIES.

THEY WERE GOING TO BE LIKE THEY WERE GOING TO BE LIKE SOCIETY PORTRAITS SOCIETY PORTRAITS OF RICH UPPER EAST SIDE PEOPLE.

OF RICH UPPER EAST SIDE PEOPLE.

I WAS TRYING TO MAKE HER SEEM I WAS TRYING TO MAKE HER SEEM DOWDY BUT VERY LIKE SHE'S FIRM, DOWDY BUT VERY LIKE SHE'S FIRM, AND, YOU KNOW, SHE'S... AND, YOU KNOW, SHE'S...

THE ROCK, CENTER, THE ROCK, CENTER, OF HER FAMILY, OR THINKS SHE IS.

OF HER FAMILY, OR THINKS SHE IS.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY ALSO AND IT'S ACTUALLY ALSO THE FIRST TIME I USED THE FIRST TIME I USED THE GREEN SCREEN BEHIND ME, THE GREEN SCREEN BEHIND ME, BECAUSE I REALIZED BECAUSE I REALIZED I WANTED TO ADD BACKGROUNDS.

I WANTED TO ADD BACKGROUNDS.

AND THE LAB I WORK WITH SAID, AND THE LAB I WORK WITH SAID, YOU KNOW, "PLEASE GET US YOU KNOW, "PLEASE GET US A GREEN SCREEN, A GREEN SCREEN, BECAUSE IT'S JUST EASIER BECAUSE IT'S JUST EASIER TO SEPARATE THE FIGURE TO SEPARATE THE FIGURE FROM THE BACKGROUND THAT WAY."

FROM THE BACKGROUND THAT WAY."

AND I WAS KIND OF RESISTANT, AND I WAS KIND OF RESISTANT, 'CAUSE I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, 'CAUSE I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, "I DON'T NEED THAT."

"I DON'T NEED THAT."

BUT ACTUALLY, IT DOES BUT ACTUALLY, IT DOES REALLY HELP.

REALLY HELP.

AND WITH DIGITAL SHOOTING, AND WITH DIGITAL SHOOTING, IT'S A LOT EASIER TO KEEP GOING.

IT'S A LOT EASIER TO KEEP GOING.

I CAN JUST STAY IN CHARACTER, I CAN JUST STAY IN CHARACTER, CONTINUE WORKING, CONTINUE WORKING, AND SEE WHEN IT'S NOT WORKING.

AND SEE WHEN IT'S NOT WORKING.

SOMETIMES I DON'T KNOW WHY, SOMETIMES I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT I CAN JUST TELL, LIKE, BUT I CAN JUST TELL, LIKE, "SOMETHING'S NOT RIGHT."

"SOMETHING'S NOT RIGHT."

AND WHILE I LIKED THIS AND WHILE I LIKED THIS CHARACTER, CHARACTER, I THINK SHE DIDN'T I THINK SHE DIDN'T LOOK OLD ENOUGH LOOK OLD ENOUGH FOR THE DOWDINESS OF HER OUTFIT.

FOR THE DOWDINESS OF HER OUTFIT.

THEN I STARTED TO ADD THEN I STARTED TO ADD THE PAUNCH IN THE STOMACH THE PAUNCH IN THE STOMACH TO GET THE FIGURE TO GET THE FIGURE A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

THEN I RESHOT IT THEN I RESHOT IT TO BE A MUCH OLDER WOMAN.

TO BE A MUCH OLDER WOMAN.

SO BASICALLY, THAT WAS SO BASICALLY, THAT WAS HOW SHE EVOLVED.

THE BACKGROUND THE BACKGROUND WAS AT THE VERY END WAS AT THE VERY END AFTER ALL THE CHARACTERS AFTER ALL THE CHARACTERS WERE DONE.

WERE DONE.

I WANTED TO APPROACH I WANTED TO APPROACH THE BACKGROUND THE BACKGROUND WITH THE SAME KIND OF LICENSE WITH THE SAME KIND OF LICENSE THAT A PAINTER WOULD TAKE WITH-- THAT A PAINTER WOULD TAKE WITH-- THAT ARTISTIC LICENSE THAT ARTISTIC LICENSE OF SELECTIVELY REMOVING STUFF.

OF SELECTIVELY REMOVING STUFF.

I LIKED THE IDEA I LIKED THE IDEA THAT SHE'S JUST FLOATING THAT SHE'S JUST FLOATING IN THIS BACKGROUND.

BASICALLY, THIS IS JUST BASICALLY, THIS IS JUST MY LITTLE NEUROTIC MY LITTLE NEUROTIC ORGANIZATION HERE OF, ORGANIZATION HERE OF, LIKE, THE FAKE LIPS AND TEETH LIKE, THE FAKE LIPS AND TEETH AND NOSES, AND NOSES, A LOT OF CLOWN NOSES, A LOT OF CLOWN NOSES, EYEBALLS EYEBALLS AND EYE-RELATED THINGS, AND EYE-RELATED THINGS, LITTLE TINY JEWELRY.

LITTLE TINY JEWELRY.

I KNOW, IT'S KIND OF RIDICULOUS I KNOW, IT'S KIND OF RIDICULOUS HOW ORGANIZED I AM.

HOW ORGANIZED I AM.

SO THESE ARE ALL THE MASKS SO THESE ARE ALL THE MASKS AND PARTS OF MASKS.

AND PARTS OF MASKS.

SOME OF THEM I'VE CUT UP SOME OF THEM I'VE CUT UP TO USE FOR OTHER THINGS.

LET'S SEE.

WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, I MADE THIS BOOK I MADE THIS BOOK OF DOLL CLOTHES OF MYSELF OF DOLL CLOTHES OF MYSELF AND MY CLOTHES.

AND MY CLOTHES.

BUT THEN I, BUT THEN I, FOR A FILM COURSE I WAS TAKING, FOR A FILM COURSE I WAS TAKING, WANTED TO BRING WANTED TO BRING THE DOLL TO LIFE.

THE DOLL TO LIFE.

AND SO THEN I SHOT MYSELF AND SO THEN I SHOT MYSELF DOING ALL THE POSES.

DOING ALL THE POSES.

SO FROM HERE, SO FROM HERE, I WENT TO DO SEVERAL SERIES, I WENT TO DO SEVERAL SERIES, WHERE IT'S ALL THESE, LIKE, WHERE IT'S ALL THESE, LIKE, CHARACTERS THAT HAVE BEEN CHARACTERS THAT HAVE BEEN CUT OUT AND BASICALLY SORT OF CUT OUT AND BASICALLY SORT OF SPREAD OUT LIKE A DECK OF CARDS SPREAD OUT LIKE A DECK OF CARDS OR SOMETHING.

OR SOMETHING.

AND FROM THERE, I STARTED AND FROM THERE, I STARTED TO PUT THESE LITTLE FIGURES TO PUT THESE LITTLE FIGURES TOGETHER TO TELL NARRATIVES, TOGETHER TO TELL NARRATIVES, WHICH IS WHAT WHICH IS WHAT THE MURDER MYSTERY THE MURDER MYSTERY PICTURES WERE, PICTURES WERE, JUST AS A MOVEMENT STUDY, JUST AS A MOVEMENT STUDY, I SUPPOSE, I SUPPOSE, AND CHARACTER STUDY.

AFTER DOING THAT FOR A YEAR AFTER DOING THAT FOR A YEAR OR SO, WHEN I MOVED TO NEW YORK, OR SO, WHEN I MOVED TO NEW YORK, I WAS SO FED UP WITH I WAS SO FED UP WITH CUTTING THESE THINGS OUT CUTTING THESE THINGS OUT TO TELL STORIES THAT I REALIZED TO TELL STORIES THAT I REALIZED I JUST NEED TO DO IT I JUST NEED TO DO IT IN ONE SHOT AND ALONE, IN ONE SHOT AND ALONE, BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS WORKING ALONE.

WORKING ALONE.

AND HOW TO IMPLY NARRATIVE AND HOW TO IMPLY NARRATIVE WHEN I'M WORKING ALONE WHEN I'M WORKING ALONE JUST LED ME TO THE FILM STILLS.

JUST LED ME TO THE FILM STILLS.

I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE WHAT LOOKED LIKE ART, WHAT LOOKED LIKE ART, IN TERMS OF PAINTING.

IN TERMS OF PAINTING.

I JUST THOUGHT, "NO, I JUST THOUGHT, "NO, I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS MASS PRODUCED."

THAT LOOKS MASS PRODUCED."

AND I DIDN'T WANT IT TO HAVE AND I DIDN'T WANT IT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ART THEORY.

ANYTHING TO DO WITH ART THEORY.

AND I WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE, AND I WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WOULD UNDERSTAND IT, WOULD UNDERSTAND IT, BECAUSE IT'S-- BECAUSE IT'S-- YOU KNOW, I LOOKS LIKE YOU KNOW, I LOOKS LIKE IT'S FROM A MOVIE, IT'S FROM A MOVIE, AND MAYBE I SAW THAT MOVIE.

AND MAYBE I SAW THAT MOVIE.

I FOUND, AT LEAST THROUGH I FOUND, AT LEAST THROUGH THE FILM STILLS THE FILM STILLS THAT I WAS FINDING, THAT I WAS FINDING, THAT IT WAS EUROPEAN MOVIES THAT IT WAS EUROPEAN MOVIES THAT THE WOMEN THAT THE WOMEN LOOKED MORE BLANK.

LOOKED MORE BLANK.

IN A WAY, THE CHARACTER, IN A WAY, THE CHARACTER, THE FACE, THE FACE, IS NOT REALLY REACTING.

IS NOT REALLY REACTING.

IT'S, LIKE, IN BETWEEN IT'S, LIKE, IN BETWEEN A REACTION.

A REACTION.

EITHER THEY'VE JUST SCREAMED, EITHER THEY'VE JUST SCREAMED, OR THEY'RE ABOUT TO SCREAM.

OR THEY'RE ABOUT TO SCREAM.

YOU DON'T KNOW, AS THE VIEWER, YOU DON'T KNOW, AS THE VIEWER, WHAT HAS JUST HAPPENED, WHAT HAS JUST HAPPENED, WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

FILM HAS ALWAYS KIND OF BEEN FILM HAS ALWAYS KIND OF BEEN MORE INFLUENTIAL TO ME MORE INFLUENTIAL TO ME THAN THE ART WORLD.

THAN THE ART WORLD.

WELL, WHEN I WAS A KID, WELL, WHEN I WAS A KID, I WATCHED TV I WATCHED TV PRETTY MUCH ALL THE TIME.

PRETTY MUCH ALL THE TIME.

IT WAS IN THE BASEMENT.

IT WAS IN THE BASEMENT.

AND THAT'S WHERE MY SORT OF-- AND THAT'S WHERE MY SORT OF-- I DON'T KNOW--WHERE I HUNG OUT I DON'T KNOW--WHERE I HUNG OUT ALL THE TIME.

ALL THE TIME.

I HAD, LIKE, MY PAINTS I HAD, LIKE, MY PAINTS AND LITTLE PROJECTS DOWN THERE.

AND LITTLE PROJECTS DOWN THERE.

AND I WOULD JUST SIT AND I WOULD JUST SIT IN FRONT OF THE TV IN FRONT OF THE TV AND WORK ON MY SCHOOL PROJECTS AND WORK ON MY SCHOOL PROJECTS OR LITTLE ART PROJECTS OR LITTLE ART PROJECTS AND WATCH MOVIES ALL THE TIME.

AND WATCH MOVIES ALL THE TIME.

I HAVEN'T TITLED I HAVEN'T TITLED ANYTHING, REALLY, ANYTHING, REALLY, SINCE THE FILM STILLS.

SINCE THE FILM STILLS.

THAT WAS THE ONLY SERIES THAT WAS THE ONLY SERIES THAT HAD AN OFFICIAL TITLE.

THAT HAD AN OFFICIAL TITLE.

AND THE INDIVIDUAL WORKS AND THE INDIVIDUAL WORKS WERE REALLY JUST NUMBERED WERE REALLY JUST NUMBERED ACCORDING TO THE GALLERY.

ACCORDING TO THE GALLERY.

BUT SOME SERIES HAVE BEEN NAMED BUT SOME SERIES HAVE BEEN NAMED NOT THROUGH ME NOT THROUGH ME BUT THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE BUT THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE WRITING BOOKS.

WRITING BOOKS.

I MEAN, THE FAIRY TALES-- I MEAN, THE FAIRY TALES-- I GUESS I CALL THEM I GUESS I CALL THEM THE FAIRY TALES THE FAIRY TALES 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW 'CAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO CALL THEM.

THE CENTERFOLDS THE CENTERFOLDS I'VE ALSO CALLED I'VE ALSO CALLED "THE HORIZONTALS."

"THE HORIZONTALS."

THE REASON I WASN'T THE REASON I WASN'T TITLING THEM, TITLING THEM, BESIDES THE FACT BESIDES THE FACT THAT I NEVER FELT THAT I NEVER FELT VERY MUCH OF A WORDSMITH-- VERY MUCH OF A WORDSMITH-- I DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE I DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE A PRECONCEIVED NOTION A PRECONCEIVED NOTION OF WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED OF WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO IMAGINE THIS CHARACTER TO BE.

ONE OF THE CENTERFOLD PICTURES, ONE OF THE CENTERFOLD PICTURES, WHICH I CALL "THE BLACK SHEETS" WHICH I CALL "THE BLACK SHEETS" FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, I THINK OF THAT CHARACTER I THINK OF THAT CHARACTER AS HAVING JUST WOKEN UP AS HAVING JUST WOKEN UP FROM, LIKE, A NIGHT OUT FROM, LIKE, A NIGHT OUT ON THE TOWN, AND SHE'S JUST ON THE TOWN, AND SHE'S JUST GONE TO BED, LIKE, GONE TO BED, LIKE, FIVE MINUTES BEFORE, FIVE MINUTES BEFORE, AND THE SUN IS WAKING HER UP, AND THE SUN IS WAKING HER UP, AND SHE'S GOT, LIKE, AND SHE'S GOT, LIKE, THE WORST HANGOVER.

THE WORST HANGOVER.

YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, "OH, MY GOD."

"OH, MY GOD."

AND SHE'S ABOUT TO PULL AND SHE'S ABOUT TO PULL THE SHEETS OVER HER HEAD THE SHEETS OVER HER HEAD OR SOMETHING TO GO TO SLEEP.

OR SOMETHING TO GO TO SLEEP.

AND OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND THINK SHE'S A RAPE VICTIM.

AND THINK SHE'S A RAPE VICTIM.

OF COURSE, BY SAYING OF COURSE, BY SAYING "THE BLACK SHEETS," "THE BLACK SHEETS," IF I HAD TITLED IT IF I HAD TITLED IT "THE BLACK SHEETS," "THE BLACK SHEETS," YOU KNOW, IT WOULD STILL BE YOU KNOW, IT WOULD STILL BE AMBIGUOUS ENOUGH.

AMBIGUOUS ENOUGH.

I GUESS I COULD'VE I GUESS I COULD'VE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT FOR THAT ONE.

CALLING IT "THE BLACK SHEETS" CALLING IT "THE BLACK SHEETS" ISN'T ANY MORE INTERESTING ISN'T ANY MORE INTERESTING THAN "UNTITLED NUMBER 79" THAN "UNTITLED NUMBER 79" OR WHATEVER IT IS.

OTHER SERIES, I'VE BEEN OTHER SERIES, I'VE BEEN KIND OF CRITICIZED KIND OF CRITICIZED BECAUSE PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS MAKING TOO MUCH FUN MAKING TOO MUCH FUN OF THE CHARACTERS OF THE CHARACTERS I WAS PORTRAYING, I WAS PORTRAYING, LIKE THE HOLLYWOOD LIKE THE HOLLYWOOD HAMPTON TYPES HAMPTON TYPES WHEN I FIRST SHOWED THEM WHEN I FIRST SHOWED THEM OUT IN L.A., OUT IN L.A., THERE WAS SOME CRITICISM THERE WAS SOME CRITICISM THAT THEY THOUGHT I WAS JUST THAT THEY THOUGHT I WAS JUST MAKING FUN OF THESE MAKING FUN OF THESE HOLLYWOOD TYPES, HOLLYWOOD TYPES, AS IF, YOU KNOW, "HERE SHE AS IF, YOU KNOW, "HERE SHE COMES FROM THE EAST COAST, COMES FROM THE EAST COAST, AND WHO DOES SHE THINK SHE IS?"

AND WHO DOES SHE THINK SHE IS?"

OR SOMETHING.

OR SOMETHING.

I KIND OF LIKED I KIND OF LIKED THOSE CHARACTERS TOO.

THOSE CHARACTERS TOO.

IT'S NOT LIKE I DIDN'T LIKE THEM IT'S NOT LIKE I DIDN'T LIKE THEM AND I'M GONNA MAKE FUN AND I'M GONNA MAKE FUN OF THESE WOMEN.

I THINK ESPECIALLY I THINK ESPECIALLY IN THE RECENT WORK, THEY-- IN THE RECENT WORK, THEY-- MAYBE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT MAYBE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT SO STEREOTYPICAL TYPE SO STEREOTYPICAL TYPE CHARACTERS, CHARACTERS, THEY SEEM, I THINK, THEY SEEM, I THINK, EXTREMELY COMPASSIONATE EXTREMELY COMPASSIONATE AND POIGNANT AND POIGNANT AND MOVING.

IN THESE PICTURES, IN THESE PICTURES, I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE PEOPLE WHO WERE ACTUALLY LIKE PEOPLE WHO WERE ACTUALLY SITTING FOR SOMEBODY SITTING FOR SOMEBODY PAINTING AND PAINTING PAINTING AND PAINTING AND PAINTING AND PAINTING AND TAKING DAYS OR WEEKS AND TAKING DAYS OR WEEKS OR HOWEVER LONG IT TOOK.

OR HOWEVER LONG IT TOOK.

AND SO THERE'S THIS AND SO THERE'S THIS SORT OF BOREDOM THAT, I THINK, SORT OF BOREDOM THAT, I THINK, I WANTED THEM TO HAVE, I WANTED THEM TO HAVE, LIKE TO LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE TO LOOK LIKE, YOU KNOW, "MY GOD, I'VE BEEN SITTING HERE "MY GOD, I'VE BEEN SITTING HERE IN THE SAME POSITION FOR, IN THE SAME POSITION FOR, YOU KNOW, SO LONG.

YOU KNOW, SO LONG.

PLEASE HURRY UP."

PLEASE HURRY UP."

THE ONLY THING THAT THE ONLY THING THAT JUST OCCURRED TO ME, JUST OCCURRED TO ME, LOOKING AT IT AGAIN, LOOKING AT IT AGAIN, THAT I DON'T THINK THAT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY EVEN REALIZES ANYBODY EVEN REALIZES IS THAT IN THE BOTTOM IS THAT IN THE BOTTOM RIGHT CORNER ARE ACTUALLY RIGHT CORNER ARE ACTUALLY THESE BIG TOES OF A HUGE FOOT.

THESE BIG TOES OF A HUGE FOOT.

I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, "WHAT IF IT'S LIKE "WHAT IF IT'S LIKE SHE'S A POWDERED-WIGGED WOMAN, SHE'S A POWDERED-WIGGED WOMAN, BUT THEN SHE'S GOT THESE BUT THEN SHE'S GOT THESE BIG FEET STICKING OUT BIG FEET STICKING OUT FROM UNDER HER?"

FROM UNDER HER?"

I WANT THERE, IN SOME OF THEM, I WANT THERE, IN SOME OF THEM, TO BE, LIKE, A LITTLE JOKE TO BE, LIKE, A LITTLE JOKE THAT YOU CAN SEE, THAT YOU CAN SEE, LIKE THE BIG NOSE LIKE THE BIG NOSE ON THE YOUNG GIRL, ON THE YOUNG GIRL, THE BREAST THAT LOOKS LIKE THE BREAST THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, LIKE HALF OF A GRAPEFRUIT LIKE HALF OF A GRAPEFRUIT STUCK ON TO SOMEONE'S CHEST.

STUCK ON TO SOMEONE'S CHEST.

I HADN'T DONE TOO MANY I HADN'T DONE TOO MANY CHARACTERS THAT WERE MEN.

CHARACTERS THAT WERE MEN.

IT WASN'T AS CHALLENGING IT WASN'T AS CHALLENGING AS I THOUGHT.

AS I THOUGHT.

WHAT MADE IT EASIER WHAT MADE IT EASIER IN THESE PICTURES IN THESE PICTURES THAT WAS HARDER THAT WAS HARDER IN EARLIER WORK IN EARLIER WORK WAS THAT THEY'RE JUST WAS THAT THEY'RE JUST SITTING THERE KIND OF FROZEN SITTING THERE KIND OF FROZEN IN TIME AND NOT REALLY-- IN TIME AND NOT REALLY-- THERE'S NOT REALLY ANYTHING THERE'S NOT REALLY ANYTHING EMOTIONAL THAT YOU'RE GETTING EMOTIONAL THAT YOU'RE GETTING OUT OF THAT CHARACTER OUT OF THAT CHARACTER OTHER THAN THEY'RE JUST SORT OF OTHER THAN THEY'RE JUST SORT OF SITTING THERE POSING SITTING THERE POSING AND THEY LOOK LIKE AND THEY LOOK LIKE WHO THEY ARE.

WHO THEY ARE.

THESE WERE NOT REALLY DONE THESE WERE NOT REALLY DONE IN ANY KIND OF REFERENTIAL WAY IN ANY KIND OF REFERENTIAL WAY TOWARDS ART HISTORY.

TOWARDS ART HISTORY.

IF ANYTHING, I WAS SHOWING IF ANYTHING, I WAS SHOWING HOW--NOT LITTLE I CARE ABOUT IT, HOW--NOT LITTLE I CARE ABOUT IT, BUT HOW IT'S JUST ANOTHER THING BUT HOW IT'S JUST ANOTHER THING THAT CAN INFLUENCE ME THAT CAN INFLUENCE ME ALONG WITH TELEVISION ALONG WITH TELEVISION AND ALONG WITH CHEAP MAGAZINES.

AND ALONG WITH CHEAP MAGAZINES.

IT'S NOT ANY MORE RELEVANT IT'S NOT ANY MORE RELEVANT TO MY TIME THAN ANY TO MY TIME THAN ANY OF THAT OTHER STUFF.

USUALLY, WHEN I GO USUALLY, WHEN I GO TO A PARTICULAR STORE, TO A PARTICULAR STORE, IT'S ONE PARTICULAR THING IT'S ONE PARTICULAR THING IN MIND FOR A CHARACTER.

IN MIND FOR A CHARACTER.

AHA.

AHA.

YEAH.

YEAH.

LET'S SEE.

LET'S SEE.

SEE, THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

TIGRESS LADY.

TIGRESS LADY.

LEOPARD LADY.

LEOPARD LADY.

OH, MY GOD.

OH, MY GOD.

OH, MY GOD.

OH, MY GOD.

MORE WHACKY PANTS.

MORE WHACKY PANTS.

I MEAN, THIS IS, LIKE, I MEAN, THIS IS, LIKE, THE WHACKY PANTS SECTION THE WHACKY PANTS SECTION OR SOMETHING.

OR SOMETHING.

BOB MACKIE.

BOB MACKIE.

NO WAY.

NO WAY.

OH, MY GOD.

OH, MY GOD.

OKAY.

OKAY.

WELL, MIGHT BE INSPIRING WELL, MIGHT BE INSPIRING A WHOLE NEW SERIES A WHOLE NEW SERIES RIGHT HERE.

RIGHT HERE.

RICH HIPPIE LADIES.

RICH HIPPIE LADIES.

HMM.

HMM.

EH.

EH.

I GOT TO BE DISCRIMINATING I GOT TO BE DISCRIMINATING SOMEWHERE, I GUESS.

SOMEWHERE, I GUESS.

[sighs] [sighs] I REALLY MADE OUT, REALLY...

I REALLY MADE OUT, REALLY... [chuckles] [chuckles] >> IT'S GONNA BE TOO HEAVY.

>> IT'S GONNA BE TOO HEAVY.

>> I THINK IT'S OKAY.

>> I THINK IT'S OKAY.

>> THAT ONE'S HEAVY.

>> THAT ONE'S HEAVY.

THIS ONE'S LIGHT.

THIS ONE'S LIGHT.

>> OKAY, THANKS A LOT.

>> OKAY, THANKS A LOT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS A LOT.

>> THANKS A LOT.

THANKS.

THANKS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> OFTEN, I'VE THOUGHT, >> OFTEN, I'VE THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T IMAGINE YOU KNOW, I CAN'T IMAGINE REALLY DOING THIS MY WHOLE LIFE, REALLY DOING THIS MY WHOLE LIFE, MY WHOLE CAREER.

MY WHOLE CAREER.

AND IN THE LATE '80s AND '90s, AND IN THE LATE '80s AND '90s, I WAS EXPERIMENTING MORE I WAS EXPERIMENTING MORE WITH GRADUALLY TAKING MYSELF WITH GRADUALLY TAKING MYSELF OUT OF THE PICTURE, OUT OF THE PICTURE, YOU KNOW, I WAS JUST SORT OF YOU KNOW, I WAS JUST SORT OF A REFLECTION IN SOMETHING AND THEN EVENTUALLY AND THEN EVENTUALLY JUST USING A LOT OF MANNEQUINS JUST USING A LOT OF MANNEQUINS AND DOLLS TO SUGGEST AND DOLLS TO SUGGEST THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY A LIVING PERSON A LIVING PERSON IN THE PICTURE, IN THE PICTURE, BUT IT WAS, IN FACT, BUT IT WAS, IN FACT, ALL STILL LIFE.

ALL STILL LIFE.

A LOT OF THAT WORK, A LOT OF THAT WORK, PEOPLE JUST ASSUME PEOPLE JUST ASSUME THAT I'M STILL THERE, THAT I'M STILL THERE, THAT, YOU KNOW, MY EYES THAT, YOU KNOW, MY EYES ARE THE EYES THAT YOU SEE ARE THE EYES THAT YOU SEE THROUGH THE MASK THROUGH THE MASK OR THAT THE HAND OR THAT THE HAND IN THE FOREGROUND IN THE FOREGROUND WAS ACTUALLY MY HAND, WAS ACTUALLY MY HAND, AS IF I STILL HAVE TO BE AS IF I STILL HAVE TO BE IN THE PICTURE SOMEHOW.

IN THE PICTURE SOMEHOW.

AND I WASN'T AND I WASN'T IN THIS WHOLE GROUP OF WORK.

IT WAS MUCH HARDER IT WAS MUCH HARDER THAN USING MYSELF, THAN USING MYSELF, BECAUSE WHEN I USE MYSELF, BECAUSE WHEN I USE MYSELF, I CAN PLAY SO THAT I CAN PLAY SO THAT EVERY SINGLE PICTURE EVERY SINGLE PICTURE IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

I WANTED TO MAKE PICTURES I WANTED TO MAKE PICTURES THAT WERE REALLY BIG, THAT WERE REALLY BIG, REALLY IN YOUR FACE.

REALLY IN YOUR FACE.

BEFORE I EVEN SHOT ANYTHING, BEFORE I EVEN SHOT ANYTHING, I THOUGHT, "I WANT TO MAKE I THOUGHT, "I WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF REALLY BIG PICTURES," A SHOW OF REALLY BIG PICTURES," BECAUSE YOU SEE MALE ARTISTS BECAUSE YOU SEE MALE ARTISTS DOING IT ALL THE TIME, DOING IT ALL THE TIME, EVEN WHEN THEY'RE NOT EVEN, EVEN WHEN THEY'RE NOT EVEN, LIKE, WELL KNOWN.

LIKE, WELL KNOWN.

THEY JUST, LIKE, MAKE A PICTURE THEY JUST, LIKE, MAKE A PICTURE AS BIG AS THE ENTIRE WALL AS BIG AS THE ENTIRE WALL OF THE GALLERY.

OF THE GALLERY.

IT JUST SEEMED LIKE IT JUST SEEMED LIKE SUCH A BIG EGOTISTICAL THING.

SUCH A BIG EGOTISTICAL THING.

AND I THOUGHT, "I DON'T KNOW AND I THOUGHT, "I DON'T KNOW THAT MANY WOMEN THAT REALLY THAT MANY WOMEN THAT REALLY DO THAT."

DO THAT."

AND I THOUGHT, AND I THOUGHT, "DAMN IT, I'M GONNA DO THAT, "DAMN IT, I'M GONNA DO THAT, MAKE THIS REALLY BIG PICTURE."

MAKE THIS REALLY BIG PICTURE."

SO YEAH, THAT WAS KIND OF SO YEAH, THAT WAS KIND OF PART OF IT TOO.

SEE YOU GUYS.

SEE YOU GUYS.

BYE.

[loud banging] [doors slamming] >> I KIND OF VIEW >> I KIND OF VIEW THESE EXHIBITIONS SOMETIMES THESE EXHIBITIONS SOMETIMES AS NOT THE END OF SOMETHING AS NOT THE END OF SOMETHING BUT A BEGINNING OF SOME SORT.

BUT A BEGINNING OF SOME SORT.

YOU SEE THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME YOU SEE THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME SOMETIMES.

SOMETIMES.

YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THEM YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THEM OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT.

OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT.

AND YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THEM AND YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THEM DIFFERENTLY.

DIFFERENTLY.

AND THEN YOU START AGAIN.

THE ACTIVITY OF SPINNING, THE ACTIVITY OF SPINNING, WHICH IS PART OF A NUMBER WHICH IS PART OF A NUMBER OF THOSE PIECES OF THOSE PIECES AT THE WHITNEY SHOW, AT THE WHITNEY SHOW, LIKE THE SPINNING ROOM, LIKE THE SPINNING ROOM, THAT PIECE WAS DEVELOPED THAT PIECE WAS DEVELOPED ABOUT THE SAME TIME ABOUT THE SAME TIME THAT I BEGAN THE EARLY SPINNING THAT I BEGAN THE EARLY SPINNING TAPES, WHERE I WOULD SPIN.

I'M IN THIS BUILDING I'M IN THIS BUILDING CALLED THE BROADWAY BUILDING.

CALLED THE BROADWAY BUILDING.

AND IT'S A BUILDING AND IT'S A BUILDING THAT USC HAD HAD THAT USC HAD HAD THAT THEY GAVE STUDENTS, THAT THEY GAVE STUDENTS, GRADUATE STUDENTS.

GRADUATE STUDENTS.

AND IT WAS A COMPLETELY AND IT WAS A COMPLETELY EMPTY BUILDING.

EMPTY BUILDING.

AND I WAS THE ONLY AND I WAS THE ONLY GRADUATE STUDENT GRADUATE STUDENT THAT ACTUALLY TOOK-- THAT ACTUALLY TOOK-- THE REST OF THEM STAYED THE REST OF THEM STAYED IN A STUDIO DOWN BY THE CAMPUS.

IN A STUDIO DOWN BY THE CAMPUS.

I MOVE UP TO THIS BROADWAY I MOVE UP TO THIS BROADWAY BUILDING, WHICH IS, LIKE, BUILDING, WHICH IS, LIKE, SEVEN FLOORS.

SEVEN FLOORS.

AND IT WAS THE INDUCTION CENTER AND IT WAS THE INDUCTION CENTER FOR WORLD WAR II AND VIETNAM.

FOR WORLD WAR II AND VIETNAM.

AND IT WAS A SEVEN-STORY AND IT WAS A SEVEN-STORY BUILDING COMPLETELY EMPTY.

BUILDING COMPLETELY EMPTY.

AND I HAD THIS WHOLE BUILDING AND I HAD THIS WHOLE BUILDING TO DO WHATEVER I WANTED IN.

TO DO WHATEVER I WANTED IN.

I THINK IT'S CALLED I THINK IT'S CALLED FACE PAINTING, WHITE LINE.

FACE PAINTING, WHITE LINE.

I DON'T REMEMBER HOW THE IDEA I DON'T REMEMBER HOW THE IDEA CAME TO ME.

CAME TO ME.

YOU SPEND YOUR TIME YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IN A KIND OF BALL OF IDEAS IN A KIND OF BALL OF IDEAS OR SOMETHING.

OR SOMETHING.

AND MAYBE IT COMES TO YOU AND MAYBE IT COMES TO YOU ALL AT ONCE ALL AT ONCE OR MAYBE YOU GET A GLIMMER OR MAYBE YOU GET A GLIMMER AND THEN YOU DEVELOP AN IDEA.

THIS ONE...

THIS ONE...

I HAD DONE-- I HAD DONE-- JUST PRIOR TO THIS, JUST PRIOR TO THIS, I'D DONE-- I'D DONE-- I'D WHIPPED A WALL WITH PAINT.

I'D WHIPPED A WALL WITH PAINT.

THE PAINT WAS A COMBINATION THE PAINT WAS A COMBINATION OF MOTOR OIL AND PAINT.

ALTHOUGH, I THINK I REALLY ALTHOUGH, I THINK I REALLY WANTED TO PAINT THE WHOLE WINDOW WANTED TO PAINT THE WHOLE WINDOW BLACK.

BLACK.

I DIDN'T GO THAT FAR.

I DIDN'T GO THAT FAR.

THAT WAS THE PLAN, THAT WAS THE PLAN, BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

BUT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

RAN OUT OF PAINT, RAN OUT OF PAINT, AND THAT WAS IT.

AND THAT WAS IT.

I DIDN'T GO BACK AND FINISH IT.

I DIDN'T GO BACK AND FINISH IT.

THE WINDOWS STAYED LIKE THAT THE WINDOWS STAYED LIKE THAT FOR YEARS.

AND THE TAPES WERE SORT OF, AND THE TAPES WERE SORT OF, IN THE BEGINNING, IN THE BEGINNING, WERE VERY MUCH ABOUT ME, WERE VERY MUCH ABOUT ME, AS THE ARTIST, AS THE ARTIST, JUST USE WHATEVER'S IN THE ROOM, JUST USE WHATEVER'S IN THE ROOM, THE ARCHITECTURE, THE DOORS.

THE ARCHITECTURE, THE DOORS.

VERY MINIMAL WITH PIECES, VERY MINIMAL WITH PIECES, SAILOR'S MEAT.

SAILOR'S MEAT.

I COVER MY HEAD WITH, LIKE, I COVER MY HEAD WITH, LIKE, TAPE OR BUTTER OR SOMETHING.

TAPE OR BUTTER OR SOMETHING.

LIKE, THE FIRST THING THAT LIKE, THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS IS TO COVER THE FACE.

WHERE THE OTHER ONES WHERE THE OTHER ONES WERE, I'M SPINNING, WERE, I'M SPINNING, IT'S ME, PAUL MCCARTHY, IT'S ME, PAUL MCCARTHY, MAKING AN ARTWORK.

MAKING AN ARTWORK.

YOU SEE MY FACE.

YOU SEE MY FACE.

IT'S CLEAR WHO I AM.

IT'S CLEAR WHO I AM.

IN THESE OTHER ONES, IN THESE OTHER ONES, THE PERSONA HAPPENS.

THE PERSONA HAPPENS.

AND THE PERSONA USUALLY STARTED AND THE PERSONA USUALLY STARTED WITH A KIND OF MASK WITH A KIND OF MASK OR SOME SORT OF COSTUME.

OR SOME SORT OF COSTUME.

ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR.

ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR.

[mumbling] [mumbling] I WAS KIND OF A CLASS CLOWN.

I WAS KIND OF A CLASS CLOWN.

AND SO THERE WAS ALWAYS AND SO THERE WAS ALWAYS A SORT OF PERFORMATIVE-- A SORT OF PERFORMATIVE-- DOING, LIKE, A KIND OF-- DOING, LIKE, A KIND OF-- MAKING PEOPLE LAUGH MAKING PEOPLE LAUGH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL.

I'VE NEVER REALLY EQUATED THAT I'VE NEVER REALLY EQUATED THAT WITH THE PERFORMANCE WORK WITH THE PERFORMANCE WORK I BEGAN TO DO IN THE '60s.

I BEGAN TO DO IN THE '60s.

OKAY.

OKAY.

OKAY.

OKAY.

WHAT... WHAT... WHAT I WANT-- WHAT I WANT-- I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT YOU.

I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT YOU.

JUST TRY--TRY TO LISTEN... JUST TRY--TRY TO LISTEN...

LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY.

LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY.

DON'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION.

DON'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION.

TRY TO STICK WITH IT.

TRY TO STICK WITH IT.

TRY TO LISTEN.

TRY TO LISTEN.

THIS IS-- THIS IS-- TRY TO LISTEN.

TRY TO LISTEN.

TRY TO MOVE.

TRY TO MOVE.

TRY TO THINK ABOUT...

TRY TO THINK ABOUT... EW.

EW.

OH, NO.

OH, NO.

INTERFERENCE.

INTERFERENCE.

INTERFERENCE.

INTERFERENCE.

TRY NOT TO THINK.

TRY NOT TO THINK.

TRY NOT TO...

TRY NOT TO...

THE ONE THING I WAS THE ONE THING I WAS REALLY, AS A KID-- REALLY, AS A KID-- I WAS REALLY I WAS REALLY INVOLVED WITH INVOLVED WITH CONSTRUCTING... CONSTRUCTING... BUILDING, LIKE, HUTS, BUILDING, LIKE, HUTS, CHILDREN'S HUTS CHILDREN'S HUTS AND KIDS' HUTS, YOU KNOW, AND KIDS' HUTS, YOU KNOW, AND TREE HOUSES AND TREE HOUSES AND UNDERGROUND-- AND UNDERGROUND-- LIKE, I SPENT-- LIKE, I SPENT-- THAT WAS A BIG PART OF MY-- THAT WAS A BIG PART OF MY-- I THINK--I GREW UP I THINK--I GREW UP WHERE YOU COULD DO THAT WHERE YOU COULD DO THAT PRETTY EASY, BECAUSE PRETTY EASY, BECAUSE THERE WAS A RURAL AREA THERE WAS A RURAL AREA RIGHT WHERE WE LIVED, RIGHT WHERE WE LIVED, SO IT WAS EASY TO BUILD HUTS.

SO IT WAS EASY TO BUILD HUTS.

AND THERE WERE ALWAYS AND THERE WERE ALWAYS SUBDIVISIONS BEING BUILT AROUND, SUBDIVISIONS BEING BUILT AROUND, SO YOU COULD GET THE WOOD SO YOU COULD GET THE WOOD THAT YOU NEEDED.

THAT YOU NEEDED.

SO THERE'S A WHOLE THING SO THERE'S A WHOLE THING ABOUT CONSTRUCTING ABOUT CONSTRUCTING ARCHITECTURE, I THINK.

ARCHITECTURE, I THINK.

[snoring loudly] '87, I GOT ASKED TO DO '87, I GOT ASKED TO DO A PIECE ON A CABLE STATION.

A PIECE ON A CABLE STATION.

FAMILY TYRANNY.

FAMILY TYRANNY.

HE HASN'T DONE HE HASN'T DONE WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO.

WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO.

HE'S BEEN A VERY BAD BOY.

HE'S BEEN A VERY BAD BOY.

HEY, WEAR THIS.

HEY, WEAR THIS.

WEAR THAT, BOY.

WEAR THAT, BOY.

THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO WEAR.

THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO WEAR.

>> [mumbles] >> [mumbles] >> IT WAS ALSO AT THAT POINT >> IT WAS ALSO AT THAT POINT THAT I KNEW MIKE KELLEY THAT I KNEW MIKE KELLEY BUT DIDN'T KNOW HIM BUT DIDN'T KNOW HIM REALLY WELL.

REALLY WELL.

WE'D KIND OF MET A FEW TIMES.

WE'D KIND OF MET A FEW TIMES.

AND I ASKED HIM AND I ASKED HIM TO BE IN THIS PIECE.

TO BE IN THIS PIECE.

I LIKED HIS WORK.

I LIKED HIS WORK.

I THOUGHT THERE WAS I THOUGHT THERE WAS A CONNECTION.

A CONNECTION.

SO HE JUST CAME TO THE STUDIO.

SO HE JUST CAME TO THE STUDIO.

IT WAS ALL IMPROVISED, IT WAS ALL IMPROVISED, THE WHOLE THING.

THE WHOLE THING.

NO.

NO.

HEY, BOY.

HEY, BOY.

BOY, BOY.

BOY, BOY.

>> [screaming] >> [screaming] >> I REMEMBER AT THE TIME, >> I REMEMBER AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, HAVING CHILDREN YOU KNOW, HAVING CHILDREN AND THEN SEEING MYSELF... AND THEN SEEING MYSELF...

ALMOST STANDING, YOU KNOW, ALMOST STANDING, YOU KNOW, IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE-- IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE-- WITH ONE OF MY KIDS WITH ONE OF MY KIDS OR BOTH OF THEM, OR BOTH OF THEM, STANDING...

STANDING...

STANDING IN FRONT OF THEM, STANDING IN FRONT OF THEM, BEING IN THE SAME POSTURE BEING IN THE SAME POSTURE AND SAYING THE SAME THING AND SAYING THE SAME THING THAT MY FATHER HAD SAID TO ME.

THAT MY FATHER HAD SAID TO ME.

ALTHOUGH IT SEEMS TO BE ABOUT ALTHOUGH IT SEEMS TO BE ABOUT THE CONDITIONING OF CHILDREN, THE CONDITIONING OF CHILDREN, IT'S ACTUALLY MORE OF IT'S ACTUALLY MORE OF SORT OF THAT WE ARE THAT.

SORT OF THAT WE ARE THAT.

WE ARE CONDITIONED WE ARE CONDITIONED INTO OUR REALITY.

INTO OUR REALITY.

I MEAN, IT WAS KIND OF LIKE I MEAN, IT WAS KIND OF LIKE STRUGGLING AND THINKING STRUGGLING AND THINKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

AND THEN THIS PIECE HAPPENED.

AND THEN THIS PIECE HAPPENED.

AND THEN JUST SORT OF AND THEN JUST SORT OF EXTRAPOLATING THAT EXTRAPOLATING THAT INTO WHO I AM AND, YOU KNOW, INTO WHO I AM AND, YOU KNOW, BREAKING OUT BREAKING OUT OF A CONDITIONED ATTITUDE.

OF A CONDITIONED ATTITUDE.

CALM DOWN, HERE.

CALM DOWN, HERE.

CALM DOWN.

CALM DOWN.

>> TIME TO GO TO SCHOOL, DAD.

>> TIME TO GO TO SCHOOL, DAD.

>> NO, SON.

>> NO, SON.

GOING TO SCHOOL.

GOING TO SCHOOL.

DON'T LEAVE YOUR DAD HERE ALONE.

DON'T LEAVE YOUR DAD HERE ALONE.

>> MY DAD AND I HAD AN ONGOING >> MY DAD AND I HAD AN ONGOING RELATIONSHIP SINCE I WAS A KID.

RELATIONSHIP SINCE I WAS A KID.

WE ALWAYS DID THINGS TOGETHER, WE ALWAYS DID THINGS TOGETHER, FROM PLAYING BASEBALL FROM PLAYING BASEBALL TO SKIING TO BUILDING THE HOUSE TO SKIING TO BUILDING THE HOUSE TO HELPING HIM, AS A KID, TO HELPING HIM, AS A KID, KIND OF PLAYING KIND OF PLAYING AND MAKING ART AND MAKING ART WHEN HE WAS IN THE GARAGE.

WHEN HE WAS IN THE GARAGE.

IT WAS KIND OF LIKE IT WAS KIND OF LIKE I ALWAYS FELT LIKE I ALWAYS FELT LIKE THAT WAS A PART OF MY WORLD.

THAT WAS A PART OF MY WORLD.

SO IT WAS NOT A-- SO IT WAS NOT A-- THERE'S NEVER A MOMENT THERE'S NEVER A MOMENT WHERE WE FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT WHERE WE FEEL LIKE IT'S NOT WORKING TOGETHER WORKING TOGETHER AS MUCH AS WE'RE DOING SOMETHING AS MUCH AS WE'RE DOING SOMETHING TOGETHER.

TOGETHER.

AND IT WAS KIND OF LIKE, AND IT WAS KIND OF LIKE, SEEMED RIGHT THAT WE WERE SEEMED RIGHT THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO KIND OF CREATE SUPPOSED TO KIND OF CREATE THIS MADHOUSE THING.

THIS MADHOUSE THING.

[all screaming] [all screaming] >> STOP IT!

STOP IT!

>> STOP IT!

STOP IT!

>> OH, YES.

>> OH, YES.

[laughs] [laughs] OH, YES.

OH, YES.

SINCE I WAS KIND OF YOUNG, SINCE I WAS KIND OF YOUNG, I HAD, LIKE, A FASCINATION I HAD, LIKE, A FASCINATION WITH THE PIRATES WITH THE PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN RIDE.

OF THE CARIBBEAN RIDE.

I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT MAKING I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT MAKING A PIRATE MOVIE A PIRATE MOVIE AND KIND OF TURNING THIS RIDE AND KIND OF TURNING THIS RIDE INTO A MOVIE.

INTO A MOVIE.

>> DUNCAN!

>> DUNCAN!

>> YES, SIR.

>> YES, SIR.

>> AVAST.

>> AVAST.

>> AYE-AYE, SIR.

>> AYE-AYE, SIR.

>> AND THEN ONE THING >> AND THEN ONE THING KIND OF TURNED INTO ANOTHER.

KIND OF TURNED INTO ANOTHER.

AND THEN WE STARTED AND THEN WE STARTED SITTING DOWN AND TALKING ABOUT SITTING DOWN AND TALKING ABOUT IT, AND IT UNFOLDED IT, AND IT UNFOLDED INTO SOMETHING THAT WAS INTO SOMETHING THAT WAS KIND OF MORE THAN WHAT KIND OF MORE THAN WHAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD DO.

I THOUGHT IT WOULD DO.

IT ALWAYS SEEMED LIKE IT ALWAYS SEEMED LIKE WHAT HOLLYWOOD WAS TRYING WHAT HOLLYWOOD WAS TRYING TO DO WITH A MOVIE TO DO WITH A MOVIE BUT THEN COULD NEVER DO IT.

BUT THEN COULD NEVER DO IT.

[laughing and shouting] [laughing and shouting] >> YOU KNOW, AS ARTISTS, >> YOU KNOW, AS ARTISTS, YOU THINK IN TERMS OF SPACE, YOU THINK IN TERMS OF SPACE, LIKE AN OBJECT LIKE AN OBJECT GOES IN A SPACE.

GOES IN A SPACE.

SO IT'S MUCH MORE LIKELY SO IT'S MUCH MORE LIKELY FOR ME TO THINK IN TERMS FOR ME TO THINK IN TERMS OF THE SETTING FOR THE VIDEO OF THE SETTING FOR THE VIDEO AS A SPACE AS A SPACE WHERE IT'S PRESENTED.

WHERE IT'S PRESENTED.

I DON'T THINK SINGLE CHANNEL, I DON'T THINK SINGLE CHANNEL, WHERE YOU SIT IN FACE IT.

WHERE YOU SIT IN FACE IT.

IN THESE SETTINGS, IN THESE SETTINGS, YOU ENDED UP WITH 20 CHANNELS YOU ENDED UP WITH 20 CHANNELS IN THE SAME ROOM.

IN THE SAME ROOM.

THEY BECOME LIKE BIG PAINTINGS.

THEY BECOME LIKE BIG PAINTINGS.

SOMETIMES I THINK THIS IS SOMETIMES I THINK THIS IS CLOSER TO PAINTING CLOSER TO PAINTING THAN IT IS TO FILMMAKING, THAN IT IS TO FILMMAKING, WHICH THINKS NARRATIVE, WHICH THINKS NARRATIVE, WHERE THE PAINTING CONSTRUCTS WHERE THE PAINTING CONSTRUCTS MAYBE A NARRATIVE IN THE FRAME, MAYBE A NARRATIVE IN THE FRAME, BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT TYPE OF NARRATIVE TYPE OF NARRATIVE THAN WHAT WE THINK OF THAN WHAT WE THINK OF AS FILM NARRATIVE.

AS FILM NARRATIVE.

AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAKING ART BETWEEN MAKING ART AND MAKING ENTERTAINMENT, AND MAKING ENTERTAINMENT, IS I DON'T CARE.

IS I DON'T CARE.

IT'S NOT THE SAME SITUATION.

IT'S NOT THE SAME SITUATION.

IT'S THE EXPLORATIONS OF IDEAS.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SATISFY I'M NOT TRYING TO SATISFY AN AUDIENCE.

AN AUDIENCE.

AND THAT'S WHERE THIS THING AND THAT'S WHERE THIS THING WHERE ART IS ALWAYS EQUATED WHERE ART IS ALWAYS EQUATED WITH THIS AUDIENCE-- WITH THIS AUDIENCE-- AND WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE AUDIENCE?

TO THE AUDIENCE?

MY RESPONSIBILITY MY RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE IDEAS.

SOME OF IT REALLY IS SOME OF IT REALLY IS JUST ABOUT LETTING SOMETHING GO JUST ABOUT LETTING SOMETHING GO AND THEN FINDING SOMETHING AND THEN FINDING SOMETHING IN THERE.

IN THERE.

AND THEN SOME OF IT IS REALLY AND THEN SOME OF IT IS REALLY ABOUT DIRECTING IT AND KNOWING ABOUT DIRECTING IT AND KNOWING PRETTY LONG AHEAD PRETTY LONG AHEAD THAT THAT'S WHAT'S THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN.

IT'S, THE PROCESS IT'S, THE PROCESS OF MAKING A SCULPTURE OF MAKING A SCULPTURE BEGINS TO BE INTERESTING BEGINS TO BE INTERESTING AND THE OBSESSION AND THE OBSESSION TO GET IT RIGHT.

TO GET IT RIGHT.

SURE.

SURE.

>> WE'RE REPAIRING THIS ARM, >> WE'RE REPAIRING THIS ARM, WHICH JUST CAME OFF.

WHICH JUST CAME OFF.

>> OH, IT JUST CAME OFF?

>> OH, IT JUST CAME OFF?

>> YEAH, WE ATTACHED IT, >> YEAH, WE ATTACHED IT, AND THEN-- AND THEN-- >> THAT'S RIGHT; IT BROKE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT; IT BROKE.

>> YEAH, THAT WASN'T >> YEAH, THAT WASN'T WHAT WE WERE HOPING.

WHAT WE WERE HOPING.

>> THAT'S OKAY.

>> THAT'S OKAY.

THAT'S TOTALLY OKAY.

THAT'S TOTALLY OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> I'M ACTUALLY INTERESTED >> I'M ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN GREEK SCULPTURE, IN GREEK SCULPTURE, THIS NOTION THAT THE GOD THIS NOTION THAT THE GOD IS ENDOWED IS ENDOWED IN THE SCULPTURE ITSELF.

IN THE SCULPTURE ITSELF.

SCULPTING NOT FOR THE POINT SCULPTING NOT FOR THE POINT OF MAKING A SHAPE OF MAKING A SHAPE BUT FOR THE POINT OF, LIKE-- BUT FOR THE POINT OF, LIKE-- LIKE, AS IF YOU'RE LIKE, AS IF YOU'RE STROKING AN ARM.

STROKING AN ARM.

I WAS ASKED TO DO A PIECE I WAS ASKED TO DO A PIECE FOR THE WORLD'S FAIR.

FOR THE WORLD'S FAIR.

AND I CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA AND I CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA OF MAKING INFLATABLE OF MAKING INFLATABLE 80-FOOT PINOCCHIO 80-FOOT PINOCCHIO SITTING ON A STACK OF BOOKS.

SITTING ON A STACK OF BOOKS.

INSTEAD OF HAVING A PINOCCHIO INSTEAD OF HAVING A PINOCCHIO HEAD, I PUT A CUBE HEAD ON IT.

HEAD, I PUT A CUBE HEAD ON IT.

I WAS REALLY INTO THE AESTHETIC I WAS REALLY INTO THE AESTHETIC OF THIS VINYL FULL OF AIR.

OF THIS VINYL FULL OF AIR.

I MEAN, THERE IS SOMETHING I MEAN, THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT BEING ABLE TO MAKE ABOUT BEING ABLE TO MAKE THIS GIANT OBJECT THIS GIANT OBJECT THAT IS EPHEMERAL IN A WAY THAT IS EPHEMERAL IN A WAY AND THAT... AND THAT...

IT BLOWS UP.

IT BLOWS UP.

IT'S FULL OF AIR.

IT'S FULL OF AIR.

KIND OF EXISTS THERE KIND OF EXISTS THERE FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN KIND OF MAKES AN IMAGE AND THEN KIND OF MAKES AN IMAGE FOR PEOPLE AND THEN IS GONE.

A LOT OF WHAT GOES ON A LOT OF WHAT GOES ON IS A LOT ABOUT THE PRACTICE IS A LOT ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF MAKING ART.

OF MAKING ART.

MY WORK SEEMS TO BE ABOUT MY WORK SEEMS TO BE ABOUT TEARING DOWN, TEARING DOWN, OPENING UP CONVENTIONS.

OPENING UP CONVENTIONS.

THESE INDIVIDUALS THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT AFFECT THE WORLD, THAT AFFECT THE WORLD, IN ONE WAY, THEY'RE REAL.

IN ONE WAY, THEY'RE REAL.

IN ANOTHER WAY, IN ANOTHER WAY, I SAW THEM LIKE MICKEY MOUSE I SAW THEM LIKE MICKEY MOUSE OR SANTA CLAUS, OR SANTA CLAUS, LIKE SOME SORT LIKE SOME SORT OF FABRICATED SCULPTURE.

PIECES RECYCLE PIECES RECYCLE INTO OTHER PIECES.

INTO OTHER PIECES.

PIECES GET USED PIECES GET USED 'CAUSE THEY'RE IN THE STUDIO.

'CAUSE THEY'RE IN THE STUDIO.

LIKE THE HUMMELS LIKE THE HUMMELS GO ON FOR YEARS.

GO ON FOR YEARS.

THE HUMMEL COMES FROM BAVARIA.

THE HUMMEL COMES FROM BAVARIA.

IT'S A CERAMIC FIGURINE IT'S A CERAMIC FIGURINE THAT'S MASS PRODUCED.

THAT'S MASS PRODUCED.

LOTS OF PEOPLE COLLECT THEM.

LOTS OF PEOPLE COLLECT THEM.

SOME PEOPLE HAD SENT ME SOME PEOPLE HAD SENT ME HUMMELS OVER THE YEARS.

HUMMELS OVER THE YEARS.

SO I WOULD END UP SO I WOULD END UP WITH THESE HUMMELS.

WITH THESE HUMMELS.

AND ONE DAY, I JUST DECIDED AND ONE DAY, I JUST DECIDED TO MAKE ONE.

TO MAKE ONE.

AND THEN THEY KIND OF CLICKED AND THEN THEY KIND OF CLICKED AS A FORUM THAT I WOULD AS A FORUM THAT I WOULD SORT OF JUST SAY, SORT OF JUST SAY, "MAKE THIS HUMMEL," "MAKE THIS HUMMEL," OR, "LET'S MAKE THIS HUMMEL."

OR, "LET'S MAKE THIS HUMMEL."

AND THEN IT WOULD START FORMING.

AND THEN IT WOULD START FORMING.

AND THEN IT WOULD BEGIN AND THEN IT WOULD BEGIN TO ABSTRACT.

IT JUST KEEPS GOING.

IT JUST KEEPS GOING.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS ONE OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR ONE OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE GOING ON, YOU KNOW, OR FIVE GOING ON, YOU KNOW, AT DIFFERENT SCALES.

AT DIFFERENT SCALES.

I'M NOT REALLY, AT THIS POINT, I'M NOT REALLY, AT THIS POINT, GOING OUT OF MY WAY GOING OUT OF MY WAY TO GO PICK ONES.

TO GO PICK ONES.

IT DOESN'T SEEM NECESSARY.

IT DOESN'T SEEM NECESSARY.

LIKE, ANY OF THEM WILL DO.

LIKE, ANY OF THEM WILL DO.

SOMETHING TO ACT ON, SOMETHING TO ACT ON, SOMETHING TO... SOMETHING TO... TO ALTER AND TO SHIFT, TO ALTER AND TO SHIFT, THIS WAY OF WORKING THIS WAY OF WORKING THROUGH IDEAS.

QUESTION IS, HOW FAR TO-- QUESTION IS, HOW FAR TO-- >> SMASH IT IN THERE?

>> SMASH IT IN THERE?

>> JUST TAKE THAT SUCKER AND... >> JUST TAKE THAT SUCKER AND... LIKE THAT?

LIKE THAT?

>> I THINK THAT'S MAYBE >> I THINK THAT'S MAYBE TOO LONG.

TOO LONG.

YEAH, BUT WE POUND IT YEAH, BUT WE POUND IT ALL THE WAY IN.

ALL THE WAY IN.

ALSO WHAT'S GOING ON ALSO WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE HUMMEL WITH THE HUMMEL IS THE NATURE IS THE NATURE OF THE SCULPTURE ITSELF, OF THE SCULPTURE ITSELF, WHICH IS THIS IDEA WHICH IS THIS IDEA OF PURITY AND CLEANLINESS.

OF PURITY AND CLEANLINESS.

I MEAN, I KIND OF BELIEVE I MEAN, I KIND OF BELIEVE THAT HYGIENE IS THE RELIGION THAT HYGIENE IS THE RELIGION OF FASCISM.

>> I THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT.

>> I THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT.

>> JUST DO IT.

>> JUST DO IT.

YOU'RE GONNA HAVE YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO HOLD THE HEAD, BUT... TO HOLD THE HEAD, BUT... JUST THINK.

BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE AND MYSELF, BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE AND MYSELF, THE SCULPTING MAY GO ON THE SCULPTING MAY GO ON FOR WEEKS.

FOR WEEKS.

AND IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT AND IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT ADJUSTING THIS, ADJUSTING THAT, ADJUSTING THIS, ADJUSTING THAT, ADJUSTING THIS.

>> MORE?

>> NO.

>> NO.

I DON'T THINK SO.

I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK I'M HITTING FOAM.

I THINK I'M HITTING FOAM.

>> KEEP GOING, THEN.

>> IT'S VERY SPONTANEOUS.

>> IT'S VERY SPONTANEOUS.

AND I KNOW THAT THERE ARE AND I KNOW THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WATCHING.

PEOPLE WATCHING.

AND THE FACT AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE WATCHING THAT THEY'RE WATCHING IS A REASON TO DO IT.

IS A REASON TO DO IT.

AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE THAT AND IT'S KIND OF LIKE THAT MOMENT WHERE-- MOMENT WHERE-- YEAH, LET'S SEE.

YEAH, LET'S SEE.

ALL THIS TIME ALL THIS TIME HAS GONE INTO SOMETHING, HAS GONE INTO SOMETHING, AND THEN YOU DESTROY IT.

AND THEN YOU DESTROY IT.

YOU DESTROY THE EFFORT.

YOU DESTROY THE EFFORT.

ALL RIGHT.

ALL RIGHT.

I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY.

I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY.

THE WHY AND THE ANSWERS TO WHY THE WHY AND THE ANSWERS TO WHY IT'S BEING DONE, IT'S BEING DONE, IT'S IN THE WORK.

IT'S IN THE WORK.

IT'S NOT IN WHAT WE SAY HERE, IT'S NOT IN WHAT WE SAY HERE, BECAUSE... BECAUSE... AND CERTAINLY NOT AND CERTAINLY NOT WHAT WE SAY HERE WHAT WE SAY HERE WHEN WE TRY TO ANSWER WHEN WE TRY TO ANSWER A QUESTION IN 20 MINUTES A QUESTION IN 20 MINUTES TO SOMETHING THAT IS TO SOMETHING THAT IS INTENTIONALLY AND PURPOSEFULLY INTENTIONALLY AND PURPOSEFULLY ENTANGLED.

ART:21, ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY: ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY: >> IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN >> IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN A BIG PART OF MY WORK, A BIG PART OF MY WORK, IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SYSTEMS.

IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND SYSTEMS.

>> I TRY TO FIND TRANSCENDENT >> I TRY TO FIND TRANSCENDENT MOMENTS WITHIN MY WORK.

MOMENTS WITHIN MY WORK.

>> I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED IN >> I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED IN THINGS THAT WE DON'T CALL ART.

THINGS THAT WE DON'T CALL ART.

>> IT WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE >> IT WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE IN THE WORLD COULD AGREE IN THE WORLD COULD AGREE ON A SYMBOLIC SYSTEM.

CaptionMax CaptionMax www.captionmax.com >> announcer: TO LEARN MORE >> announcer: TO LEARN MORE ART: 21, ART: 21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES, AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES, PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT: ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY IS AVAILABLE ON BLU-RAY IS AVAILABLE ON BLU-RAY AND DVD.

AND DVD.

THE COMPANION BOOK THE COMPANION BOOK IS ALSO AVAILABLE.

IS ALSO AVAILABLE.

TO ORDER, VISIT US ONLINE AT: TO ORDER, VISIT US ONLINE AT: OR CALL PBS HOME VIDEO AT: