I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN SONGBOOK AND MUSICALS.

HY ROMANCE FINALLY CAME INTO MY WORK.

IN ALL OF THE PAINTINGS, IT REALLY IS A FORRGEIST OR ANIMISM THAT'S INHABITING THE SCENE.

THNTED TO BE EMOTIONAL.

SO, I WAS 8>Q"Q"N DARKNESS, AND A WILDER CHARACTERISTIC.

(French accent) I WANT PEOPLE TO EXPERIENCE MORE AN EMOTION THAN TO EXPERIENCE JUST A SIMPLE NARRATION.

I WAS INTERESTED IN WORK THAT I SAW IN NEW YORK, IN THE '70s, THAT USED PHOTOGRAPHY OMPLETELY UNIQUE WAY FOR ME, MORE EPHEMERAL WORKS OF ART, ULD DISAPPEAR, ONLY EXISTED FOR A MINUTE, THAT NEEDED TO BE DOCUMENTED WITH A CAMERA.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO ME WHEN I STARTED TO SHOOT MY FIRST PHOTOGRAPHS, WHICH WOULD BE THE LATE '70s, WAS THAT I WAS AN ARTIST USING PHOTOGRAPHY AS A TOOL, AND NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER.

I WAS MAKING THESE SETUPS IN MY STUDIO, JUXTAPOSING PIECES OF FURNITURE, WALLS, WALLPAPER, TOPS OF BOOKS, JUST EVERYTHING WAS A CRAZY, CHAOTIC MESS AND YET, IN THE END I HAD A VERY STILL, QUIET MOMENT WHERE I'D FROZEN TIME.

THAT WAS PRISTINE AND STILL AND Fá&á1aQb AND LOTS OF TIMES DEVOID OF PEOPLE, BECAUSE LIFE FELT VERY CHAOTIC TO ME.

I EXPECTED THE V&áíáQy IEVEQbQb THAT THEY WERE ENTERING A REAL PLACE [ MUSIC PLAYS ] ♫WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA♫ ♫WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA♫ ♫WISH YOU HADDA, BUT YOU DIDN'T♫ ♫WISH IT WERE, BUT YOU'RE NOT♫ Simmons: IN MAKING THIS MOVIE, I DID SOMETHING THAT I ALWAY WANTO DO, TERALLY BRING MY WORK TO LIFE.

HEY, LISTEN, TODD, I'M SO SORRY.

NO TED, IT'S... ITLL RIG, HONESTLY.

THE BEST MAN GOT THE PROM8vQb END OF STORY.

THANKS.

NICE TIE.

THANKS.

I SHOULD HAVE WORN A RED TIE TO THE INTERVIEW.

NO.

NO, NO, NO, NO.

GREEN WITH WHITE SPOHI WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING?

Simmons: I CAST THESE PUPPETS BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE GREAT LOOKING, AND I REALLY BELIEVED THAT THEY COULD CARRY AQbQb DONNY?

QdQ÷ REMEMBER LAST FATHER'S DAY WHEN WE WENT DOWNTOWN AND BOUGHT TIES FOR OUR DADS LAWN MONEY?

Qb AND WE BOTH LIKED THAT RED STRIPED TIE?

REMEMBER... AND YOU SAID HOW DUMB IT WOULD LOOK IF OUR DADS HaQ"WEARING THAT SAME TIE?

Simmons: I GOT A CHANCE TO REVISIT MY WORK AND FIGURE OUT OULDAPPEN IF SUDDENLY I WAS LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPH, AND CHARACTERS STARTED TO TALK TO ME OR S ♫WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA♫ ♫WOULDA, SHOULDA, COULDA♫ ♫WISH I HADDA♫ D PPETS WERE DESIGNED TO BE RI RS OF A COMMUNITY, SO THEY ARE BUSINESSMEN xD AND GRANDFATHERS... ♫BUT I8>NO, I DIDN'T♫ ♫SO I'M NOT♫ THE CHALLENGE OF MAKING A MOVIExD1A MAKING A MOVIE.

BUT EVERYTHING IS MOVING.

EVERYTHING'S TALKING.

EVERYTHING'S IN COLOR.

SHE IS GORGEOUS.

Q"Q"QyNK ABOUT THINGS IN A WAY THAT I'D NEVEROUT THEM BEFORE, WITH A KIND OF DEPTH AND BREADTH Qb WAS UNIMAGINABLE TO ME BEFORE I ACTUALLY DID IT.

WHAT IS IT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY, MAY I JUST NEVER THOUGHT YOU WERE CAPABLE OF BEING SO DIVISIVE.

DIVISIVE?

IT MEANS SNEAKY.

I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

YOU OUGHT TOLIVE IT.

EVAW IT COMING.

WELL, HOW ARE DANNY AND MAY HANDLING IT?

GOOD AS CAN BE EXPECTED, JERRY.

I GUESS THAT THAT PROMOTION MEANT MORE TO TODD THAN ANYBODY THOUGHT IT DID.

JANE AND I THOUGHT HE WAS A SHOO-IN.

BUT YOUR BOY GOT IT.

Simmons: MY INNER LIFE ABOUT MY OQbQb WAS VERY THEATRICAL AND VERY NARRATIVE, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING I WAS ALWAYS AFRAID TO EXPRESS.

BECAUSE I CAME OF AGE IN AENOOL DISTANCE IN THE WORK AND A MORE CONCEPTUAL Q!>2S VERY IMPORTANT.

ITY #aQy ME.

SO I HAD A VERY SECRET INNER LIFE ABOUT THE PICTURES THAT I WAS MAKING.

I HAD MUSIC IN MY HEAD THAT WAS SORT OF PLAYING WHILE I WAS SHOOTING.

THE OPPORTUNITY TOINTEREST IN MUSIC AND MY INTEREST IN THESE VISUAL IMAGES KIND OF CONVERGE IN THIS MOVIE WAS VERY IMPORTE.

♫WE LEARNED ALL THE RULES♫ ♫FROM THE FIX-IT BOOK FOR FOOLS♫ ♫IT'S A BOOK WE LIKE TO READ♫Qb ♫MMM♫ Simmons: ACT TWO IS A DIFFERENT STORY BECAUSE THOSE DUMMIES ARE DUMMIES THAT I HAD MADE FOR A SERIES OF WORKSQb MADIN THE EARLY '90s.

THE DUMMY IS SUCH A METAPHOR FOR LYING AND TELLING THE TRUTHQb THE WAY THE VENTRILOQUIST IS ABLE TO SAY WHATEVER xDTO SAY UGHTHER CHARACTER.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL, EXCEPT FOR DIFFERENT SUITS OF CLOTHING.

THE SERIES WAS CALLED "CLOTHES MAKE THE MAN," AND IT WAS ABOUT THESE KIND OF MINUTE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY WE LOOK OR THE WAY WE ACT, THE ORIGINAL IDEA WAS TO USEQb THE GIRL DUMMY ALL THE WAY THROUGH ACT TWO.

AS THE MUSIC BECAME MORE COMPLEX, AS THE EMOTIONS AND THE THOUGHTS BECAME MORE COMPLEX, I WASN'T SURE THAT A PUPPET COULD CARRY ACT TWO, AND THAT WAS WHEN I DECIDED THAT THE PUPPET WOULD BECOME A REAL WOMAN.

[ UKULELE PLAYING ] ♫'1y MOON-A♫ GIN' AHI AHI TUNA♫ AWAKALU♫ ♫WAKALULU LO♫ ♫YOU'RE MY KALANI WAHINE♫ ♫YOU'RE MY PUNA HILOKANA♫ ♫YOU'RE MY MAKALA KAIULANI♫ ♫MAKALA KAIULANI DO♫ Simmons: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO UNCOMFORTABLE TO THINK ABOUT MERYL STREEP PORTRAYING ME IN THE MOVIE.

THE FIRST TIME I SAW HER, IT WAS VERY UNSETTLING WE MET AT THE WIG SHOP AND I WALKED IN, AND MERYL HAD HER BACK TO ME AND SHE STOOD UP AND TURNUND AND I SAW HER IN THE DARK WIG "WHOA, THIS IS VERY EERIE, THIS IS VERY ODD."

SHE BECAME THE CHARACTER.

IT WASN'T ABOUT ME ANYMORE.

ACT ONE REALLY DID GIVE ME A CHANCE TO EXPLORE LOVE WITHIN FAMILY AND LOVE AMO AND PROBLEMS IN A FAMILY AND PROBLEMS WITH NEIG AND THEN I JUST NEED ANOTHER LITTLE SIG&2 FOR PLAYBACK AND THEN WE GO RIGHT INTO THE S SO YOU MAY NOT KNOW WHAT THAT SIGNAL IS, OR I MAY JUST FEEL IT AND TELL HIM TO HIT PLAYBACK.

ACT TWO HAS AN ELEMENT THE ACTION BETWEEN THE GIRL AND THE DUMMY AND THEQb AND THE WISTFUL, REGRETFUL MOOD.

MAYBE BECAUSE I WAS THINKING SO MUCH ABOUT THE AMERICAN SONGBOOK AND MUSICALS AND MOVING A NARRATIVE FORWARD.

[ INDISTINCT SINGING ] Streep: IT'S A VERY INTERESTING MIX OF BEING IN A LOVE SONG AND STANDING OUTSIDE OF IT AND SEEING THE MECHANICS OF HOW IT WORKS.

ALL THE LAYERING OF THE... NDS THE LAID IN RAIN OR SNOW AND ALL THE THINGS [ INDISTINCT SINGING ] ♫THE FEVER BROKE, #!AN'T BE FIXED♫ ♫THERE'S FOG WHEN HOT♫ ♫AND COLD ARE MIXED♫ ♫IT'S GETTING COLD OUT HERE♫ I WAS REALLY IMPRESSED BY HER IN HOW SHE WAS ABLE TO MAKE A LYRIC.

I THINK OF HER AS AUAL AR.

IT'S AQyO TO MATCH A LYRIC TO A MELODY, AND SHE DID IT BEAUTIFULLY AND MADE IT EASY TO KIND OF HAVE AN EMOTIONAL FLOW THROUGHC.

Woman: OKAY, NUMBER ONE.

[ PIANO PLAYS ] NUMBER TWO, PLEASE.

SHOOTING THE OBJECTS ON LEGS.

I WAS THINKING I NEED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO THE FIRST ONE THAT I SHOT WAS THE CAMERA, AND I PLACED IT ON A FRIEND OF MINE, JIMMY DeSANA.

HE TAUGHT ME EVERYTHING I KNOW ABOU TO PUT THIS CAMERA ON TOP OF HIM, PUT A PA#!

ON HIM AND PHOTOGRAPH HIM [ PIANO PLAYS ] AS BEING A MORE PHYSICAL EXPRESSION OF MY WORK.

SO ENDING ON THE NOTE OF THEQb SEEMED COMPLETELY APPROPRIATE TO I CHOSE THE POCKET WATCH TO BE THE STAR OF ACT THREE -- THE CHARACTER THAT WOULD ELICIT THE MO AND THE MOST COMPASSION.

I KNEW THE BIRTHDAY CAKE WIQb WOULD GET THE PART, AND THE POCKET8> TO GET THE PART, NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO SHOW HIS/HER STUFF.

Simmons: AND REALLY MAYBE WAS THART, Woman: OKAY, EVERYBODY.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING.

GOOD NIGHT.

PERFECT.

Simmons: AND THEN WE WONDER WHx!ENED IF THE POCKET WATCH GOT TO ACTUALLY DANCQb IN FRONT OF THE PRODUCER/CHOREOGRAPHER/DIRECTOR.

Woman: LET'S JUST GO THROUGH THIS.

Simmons: THE WHOLE THING WITH HER IS AS MUCH AS...

WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AS MUCH OF THE STAGE AS SHE CAN TAKE BECAUSE IT'S HER STAGE,Qb HER MOMENT, AND I THINK IT'S... YEAH, I THINK IT'S HAPPENING.

Woman: OOH, NICE.

Simmons: I'M VERY INTERESTED IN STOPPING TIME... AND ST THERE IS THAT ASPECT OF TIME THAT I'M PLAYING WITH, THAT IT'S ILLUSIVE AND UNNOTICED, REGRET IS THE PRMOTION, THE PREVAILING THOUGHT THAT BRINGS THE THREE ACTS TOGETHER.

IT'S VERY MUCH ABOUT THE DIFFERENT GUISES OF REGRET, THE NOTION OF REGRET.

SO IT ENDS ON A NOTE OF REALLY WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN, IF I JUST HAD A CHANCE.

Pittman: I THINK AS CHAOTIC AS AMERICAN CULTURE IS, SADLY, IRONICALLY OR EVEN PERVERSELY, I THRIVE ON THAT.

I'M ABLE TO CARVE OUT A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FREEDOM, AND EVEN MORE PARTICULARLY IN LOS ANGELES.

I CAN CONTROL THIS IDEA OF AESTHETICS AND BEAUTY, MICROMANAGE IT MORE HERE THAN I COULD IN CULTURAL SITUATIONS WHERE THERE IS SUCH A STRONG, ESTABLISHED CODE OF AESTHETICS, THAT IT'S STILL THE WILD WEST ON SOME LEVELS, THAT YOU CAN STILL PAINT IT ANY WHICH WAY YOU WANT.

I WANT TO OFFER A PAINTING THAT SOMEHOW THE VIEWER HAS TO STAND IN FRONT OF IT AND ALMOST NOT BELIEVE IT.

BUT IN THE ACT OF NOT BELIEVING IT, WHAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY SEEING, THEY GET SWEPT AWAY IN IT.

EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS FAKE AND ARTIFICIAL, BUT THEY GET TRANSPORTED SOMEWHERE FAR AWAY.

THAT'S A GREAT THING.

THE WORK IS VISUALLY AVAILABLE TO EVERYBODY.

MULTIPLE VIEWERS CAN APPROACH IT VERY DIFFERENTLY, FOR EXAMPLE, I'M ALWAYS EXCITED WHEN THE UPS MAN OR THE WATER MAN COMES IN TO THE FRONT OF THE STUDIO AND MAKES A DELIVERY, AND THEY IMMEDIATELY JUST RESPOND TO THE WORK AND THUMBS-UP, THAT TYPE OF THING.

I WILL NOT HIGH-FIVE THOUGH.

BUT I'M ALSO INTERESTED THAT THE WORK OCCUPY A DENSER, CRITICAL TERRITORY THAT WOULD REQUIRE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF AUDIENCE, MAYBE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF VISUAL LITERACY.

THE WORK IS NOT CONFINED TO ONE DEMOGRAPHIC.

THE WORK HAS THE CAPACITY TO NAVIGATE BETWEEN THESE VERY, VERY DISTANT POLES OF THE POPULIST AND THE ELITIST.

THERE IS A VERY, VERY STRONG MEDITERRANEAN CORE TO WHO I AM.

AND QUITE FRANKLY I NEED A LOT OF SUN.

I WAS BORN IN GLENDALE, CALIFORNIA, BUT MY FORMATIVE YEARS WERE IN COLOMBIA.

MY MOTHER IS COLOMBIAN.

MY FATHER IS SOUTHERN, FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM A PROTESTANT BACKGROUND.

SO I GREW UP IN A VERY... NOT A CONTRADICTORY WORLD, BUT A HYBRID WORLD.

THEY HAD A PET CHICKEN NAMED JAIME, THAT I REMEMBER MY AUNT LEHIA BOUGHT FOR ME AT SEARS WHEN WE WERE LIVING IN COLOMBIA.

THEN WE MOVED TO MY MOTHER'S FAMILY TOWN NEAR THE EQUATOR AND I WAS NOT GOING TO LEAVE JAIME BEHIND.

MY FATHER ASKED THE CAPTAIN OR THE PILOT IF I COULD BRING THE CHICKEN ON MY LAP, AND THAT WAS FINE, IT WAS ALL CLEARED, AND THEN MY GRANDMOTHER WAS WITH US LIVING FOR A WHILE IN CALI, AND I REQUESTED THAT WE MAKE A TRAVELING OUTFIT FOR JAIME.

SO WE MADE A VEST AND SO I WAS JUST VERY PROUD AND I WAS NEVER MADE FUN OF, IT WAS JUST THAT KIND OF IDEA OF TOTALLY NORMATIVE.

AND SO MY FATHER WAS WITH ME, AND I WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE MY CHICKEN, FULLY DRESSED FOR TRAVEL ON MY LAP.

I THINK THAT THAT KIND OF PRE-CONDITION OF ALLOWING ME TO EXPRESS A FEY SIDE, I GUESS, AS A YOUNG BOY, WAS GIVEN FULL REIN AND NEVER, EVER COMMENTED ON, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHY THE DECORATIVE ASPECT OF THE WORK COMES SYSTEMICALLY, ORGANICALLY, NATURALLY TO ME BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY ALLOWED TO BLOOM AND BLOSSOM AND WASN'T CURTAILED OR CURBED WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

I'M GRATEFUL FOR HAVING A CHARMED LIFE, AND A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PRIVILEGE, I'M VERY EXCITED AND THANKFUL FOR.

BUT EVEN WITHIN THAT FRAMEWORK OF LIVING SOMEWHAT IN A BUBBLE, I THINK WHAT KEEPS ME RADICALIZED IS BEING AWARE OF THE OVERWHELMING HATRED THAT IS EXHIBITED BY THE AMERICAN POPULATION AND THROUGH ACTUAL LEGISLATION AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS.

SO, UM, YOU KNOW, I CAN LEAD QUITE A PRETTY LIFE.

[ Chuckles ] UM, BUT IT'S ALWAYS QUICKLY CLARIFIED BY THOSE VERY AGGRESSIVE STRAINS IN AMERICAN CULTURE, WHICH IN A WAY WONDERFULLY PUTS ME IN MY PLACE.

I WILL NOT LEAVE A PAINTING.

I WON'T LEAVE IT.

I WON'T LEAVE IT DOWN.

AND I THINK IT COMES FROM A DEEP CULTURAL PATHOLOGY THAT MAYBE HOMOSEXUALS MIGHT HAVE.

AND THAT IS YOU FIX SOMETHING UP, THAT KIND OF SERVICE COMPONENT OF ONE'S KIND, OF LOOKING AT THINGS AND FIXING THEM UP, AND THAT'S KIND OF HOW I LOOKED AT PAINTING IN THE '70s, 'CAUSE IT WAS A COMPLETELY ABANDONED THING.

AND I WAS KIND OF THRILLED THAT IT WAS ABANDONED AND I MAYBE HAD A CHANCE TO FIX IT UP.

THE IMPETUS FOR THIS PAINTING REALLY COMES FROM MEXICAN RETABLOS, WHICH IS A DEVOTIONAL PAINTING ON TIN.

AND I THINK IT DATES ROUGHLY FROM MID TO LATE 19th CENTURY.

I'M AN AVID COLLECTOR OF THESE KIND OF ANONYMOUS PAINTERS.

THESE RETABLOS WERE USED AS DEVOTIONAL IMAGERY.

I'M ATTRACTED TO THEM IRONICALLY AS AN ATHEIST.

I'M ATTRACTED TO RELIGIOUS ART SIMPLY BECAUSE IT USUALLY SHOWS A HYPERBOLIC MOMENT LIKE THE SUFFERING OR MARTYRDOM OF A SAINT, OR IN THIS CASE A VERY DRAMATIC MOMENT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST.

SO I...I DO LOOK AT THIS RELIGIOUS IMAGE THROUGH A SECULAR LENS.

AND THEN ACTUALLY THIS LITTLE PAINTING WAS ABLE TO GIVE ME THE CUES FOR THE COLOR PALETTE IN THE PAINTING ITSELF, ALTHOUGH NOW I NEED TO HAVE A MORE DESTABILIZING COLOR INTRODUCED IN IT.

I'VE ALWAYS TAKEN FROM THE RETABLOS, BUT IT'S MORE ABOUT A TYPE OF PAINTING TECHNIQUE -- A KIND OF DECORATIVE, APPLIED ARTS TECHNIQUE BY WHICH THEY EMBELLISH THE SURFACE OF THE RETABLOS.

AND THAT I'VE BEEN DOING FOR OVER 20 YEARS.

BUT THIS WAS KIND OF THE FIRST TIME I SAMPLED SO DIRECTLY.

I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS ABOUT FIGURATION.

EVERY MORNING I HAVE A WALK ABOUT LOOKING AT ALL THE CACTUSES THAT WE'VE PLANTED AND REALLY STUDYING THEM.

THIS IS KIND OF THE FIRST TIME THAT INSTEAD OF INVENTING OR FABRICATING A PAINTING THAT I'M ACTUALLY REFERRING TO SOMETHING VERY SPECIFICALLY THAT I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT EVERY MORNING.

WHAT I THINK STILL HAS TO HAPPEN IN A PAINTING LIKE THIS IS THAT WE'RE SEEING THE SETTING AND WE'RE SEEING A LIST OF NOUNS, AND THERE ARE A LIST OF ADJECTIVES, SO THE NOUNS ARE ALL BEING MODIFIED SO...

BUT LINGUISTICALLY WHAT ISN'T HAPPENING IN THIS PAINTING IS THE VERB YET.

IN ALL OF THE PAINTINGS AND ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT I SHOWED IN NEW YORK AT THE END OF LAST YEAR, IT REALLY IS A FORM OF POLTERGEIST OR ANIMISM THAT'S INHABITING THE SCENE.

THE TABLEAU.

CLEARLY, SOMETHING IS OCCURRING IN THIS AREA OF THE PAINTING, SOME SORT OF SHIFT OF IDENTITY OF A SPACE, BUT WE CAN'T NAME IT, BUT THEN A WAY FOR ME TO SOMEWHAT SUBLIMATE IT BACK DOWN AND FOR IT NOT TO SEEM TOO SPECTACULAR, I'VE PLACED A SPIDER WEB OVER IT TO SOMEWHAT... LIKE A NET, TO SOMEHOW CORRAL THE EFFECT A BIT.

IT'S A CENTRAL PART OF THE PAINTING, BUT AGAIN IT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH FOR IT TO BE THE VERB OF THE PAINTING, AND SOMEHOW I THINK THE VERB OF THE PAINTING HAS TO OCCUR SOMEWHERE IN HERE.

SOMEHOW TO ACTIVATE THE BRANCHES OF THE CACTUS EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF IT BEING A LITTLE BIT MORE ALLEGORICAL.

THAT I WOULDN'T MIND.

I'M NOT RESISTING THE INVASION OF THAT ASPECT OF MY PRIVATE LIFE, WHICH IS THE GARDEN, REALLY CLEARLY FINDING ITS PLACE IN THE WORK.

I DON'T RESPOND TO THE IDEA OF NATURE AT LARGE.

I PREFER LANDSCAPING.

AND LANDSCAPING IS A WAY TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT THE CHAOS OF NATURE, AND THE KIND OF VIOLENCE OF IT.

SO IT'S IMPOSING A TYPE OF RATIONAL GARDENING STRUCTURE OVER THESE CACTUS AND SUCCULENTS.

WE'RE NOT AS KEEN ON A TYPE OF NATURALISM SO THE GARDEN HAS A VERY DECIDED MANNERISM TO IT.

THE CACTUS ARE A SURROGATE STRUCTURE.

AND THE GARDEN IS ONE ELABORATE METAPHOR.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GARDENING INDUCES IN THE GARDENER, FOR GOOD OR FOR BAD, IS A RUMINATION ON MORTALITY, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CONCENTRATED AND VERY COMPRESSED RELATIONSHIP TO THE LIFE AND DEATH OF PLANTS.

YOU THINK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN IF YOU DIDN'T GARDEN.

IT BECOMES A HEIGHTENED, SYNOPSIZED LIFE AND DEATH CYCLE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Pfaff: I GOT MY FIRST WELDER IN MAINE, AND I NEEDED TO STRUCTURE SOME STUFF AND I THOUGHT, "OH, I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO WELD NOW."

I NEVER WANTED TO BE A SCULPTOR.

MY BACKGROUND IS PAINTING -- I WAS A PAINTER.

ALL MY FRIENDS WERE PAINTERS.

ELIZABETH MURRAY -- YOU KNOW, GREAT, GREAT PAINTER.

AND I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT WELDERS WERE NOT ONLY GUYS THAT DRANK BEER, AND CLANKED AROUND WITH RUSTY STUFF, I AM NOW CLANKING AROUND WITH RUSTY STUFF, DRINKING BEER.

BUT THIS FIRST WELDER I GOT WAS ACTUALLY FOR THIN SHEET METAL, AND IT WAS FOR AUTO BODY GUYS.

IT WAS LIKE A SWEET WELDER, NOT STICK WELDING, WHICH IS PRETTY ROUGH.

THIS WOULD BE THE EQUIVALENT OF HOT GLUE GUN OR SEWING.

Man: THAT'S MEL.

Pfaff: I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT MEL.

HE MOVES EARTH AROUND.

I DIDN'T REALIZE IT.

I ONLY DEAL WITH LITTLE THINGS.

HE DEALS WITH LIKE BIG THINGS, YOU KNOW?

AND HE SEES THESE ROOTS, AND HE SAYS "YOU WANT ROOTS?

I GOT ROOTS."

[ LAUGHS ] SO MEL AND I GO DOWN TO THE RIVER AND WE FIND, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE LOOKED AT THESE THINGS.

THEY'RE THE BEST ROOTS I EVER SAW.

CAN YOU SEE HOW ROUGH THESE THINGS WERE?

THEY'RE LIKE...

THESE ARE HUGE.

LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THAT.

LOOK.

THESE STUMPS WERE BROKEN INTO FOUR PARTS BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO GET THEM INTO THE GALLERY, AND UP ELEVATORS, AND SO WE'RE CUTTING THEM APART AND PUTTING THEM BACK TOGETHER.

YOU READY?

Man: BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY DO IT WHEN IT'S UP.

Pfaff: RIGHT...WE DRAW THIS PATTERN OUT AND WE'RE GOING TO TAKE IT APART...

I WAS BORN IN LONDON.

THAT WAS 1946.

THEN CAME TO AMERICA WHEN I WAS ABOUT 12, AND UH, DID NOT FIT, AND WAS QUITE UNRULY.

I WASN'T RAISED BY MY MOTHER.

I MET HER WHEN I CAME TO AMERICA.

I NEVER HAVE MET MY FATHER.

I WAS A TERRIBLE STUDENT.

I DON'T LIKE TO READ.

I DON'T LIKE TO DO HOMEWORK.

I COULD CARE LESS.

I'M ORNERY.

I DON'T LIKE AUTHORITY.

I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE ME A LOUSY STUDENT.

SEE, THE ART PART... AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY WHERE AL CAME IN.

AL HELD WAS MY TEACHER AT YALE.

HE THOUGHT I WAS VISUALLY INTELLIGENT, A DISASTER IN OTHER WAYS.

BUT HE THOUGHT THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE WAY I SORT OF GET IT WITH MATERIALS THAT WOULD HOOK ME INTO ANOTHER KIND OF EDUCATION.

PAINTERS, I THINK, ARE MADE DIFFERENTLY.

THEY CAN CONCENTRATE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I FOUND WHEN I WAS A PAINTER I COULDN'T STOP, AND UNTIL IT WAS FINISHED, ANOTHER THOUGHT DIDN'T ENTER.

WITH A SCULPTURE, THEY GO ON FOR MONTHS.

IT TELLS DIFFERENT KINDS OF STORIES.

THEY'RE SORT OF A SEQUENCE MOMENTS.

IT WORKED BETTER FOR THE WAY I AM PUT TOGETHER, AND I LOVE STUFF, AND AS YOU KNOW, I LOVE TOOLS.

LAST YEAR, EVERYONE I KNEW DIED.

MY MOTHER, AL, GOOD FRIENDS, AND, UM, AND I JUST THOUGHT, THIS SHOW I JUST WANTED TO BE EMOTIONAL.

SO I WAS BASING THIS SORT OF ON IMAGES OF...

I DON'T THINK HELL, BUT DARKNESS, AND KIND OF A WILDER CHARACTERISTIC THAN THE OTHER STUFF.

THIS SHOW IS GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF LIGHT.

THERE'S GOING TO BE ONE ROOM ALL LIGHT, ALL WHITE.

AND ANOTHER ONE ALL BLACK.

OR I THINK, AND THESE BIG ROOTS ARE GOING TO COME IN.

SO IT'S GOING TO BE A STACK OF THINGS THAT GO FROM LIGHT TO DARK OR HEAVY TO LIGHT OR HOWEVER.

I HAVE A WAY OF NEVER SORT OF TOUCHING THINGS DIRECTLY.

IT'S SORT OF FUNNY 'CAUSE I'M VERY HANDS-ON, BUT IN A WAY THAT'S NOT...NOT TRUE.

THERE'S USUALLY A TOOL.

AND FINDING THESE BURNING KITS WAS LIKE...

THIS IS FOR GUYS WHO MAKE DUCK DECOYS, SO YOU GET THESE BLADES FOR PUTTING FEATHERS ON OR DOING DETAILS.

IT'S ALL SOLID BURNING AND DYING AND GOING THROUGH LAYERS, SO IT'S A NICE PHYSICAL WAY OF GETTING INTO SOMETHING.

I THINK I HAVE SO MUCH CONTROL OVER THINGS.

I GET SO INVOLVED THAT HAVING AN INSTRUMENT BETWEEN IT BLUNTS THAT A BIT.

I THINK THE SHOW IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE THESE...

THESE DRAWINGS AND IT'S... AND YOU KNOW AND THAT SORT OF ENDS UP ACTUALLY TO BE TRUE.

BUT I THINK IF YOU SEE THAT AND SEE THE WORK, YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE'S JUST A LOT OF, UH, IMAGERY THAT'S SORT OF SIMILAR IN A WAY.

THERE'S A LOT OF FLAMING GOING...

THERE'S A LOT OF LIKE SOOT, FIRE, BURNING, AND A LOT OF WATER, TOO.

SO I THINK IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING SET OF DYNAMICS.

I THINK SOME OF THESE DRAWINGS ACTUALLY LOOK QUITE NICE.

EVEN TAME.

THEIR WAY OF BEING MADE IS VERY ROUGH.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WAS THERE'S ALL THIS ROUGHNESS, THAT IT ACTUALLY KIND OF ENDS UP CALMING DOWN.

WE'VE BEEN DOING THESE FORMS FOR A WHILE.

THEY'RE BASED ON WHAT'S CALLED A SWEEP MOLD.

SWEEP... THAT'S S-W-E-E-P MOLD.

AND I SAW A PATTERN FOR IT ON A WPA MANUAL FOR PEOPLE LEARNING PLASTER WORK.

THEY USE WHAT'S CALLED LIVE PLASTER, SO THE PLASTER IS MIXED WITH STUFF, AND THEN YOU HAVE A FORM AND AT A CERTAIN MOMENT YOU DRAG THE FORM OVER AND IT TAKES THAT PERFECTLY.

FOR BIG SHAPES, YOU HAVE A CIRCULAR TRACK, AND YOU'RE WALKING IT, SO IT'S JUST THIS GIGANTIC SORT OF PERFORMANCE OF WALKING THIS...THIS PLASTIC BLADE...

THIS WILL BE FILLED WITH STYROFOAM AND THEN THE LAST PART OF IT IS THIS PLASTER THAT MAKES IT LIKE THIS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL TURNED FORM.

SO WHAT THIS IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE, THERE ARE TWO.

THERE'S ONE THAT GOES UP THIS WAY, AND THERE'S ANOTHER ONE THAT GOES TO THE TOP, SO IT'LL LOOK LIKE THE NEGATIVE SPACE OF TWO SPHERES.

AND THAT'S WHERE THAT KIND OF TWO WORLDS THING COME IN, THE WHITE AND THE BLACK, SO...

I THINK, I DON'T KNOW.

I'M SAYING THIS THINKING THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M GOING TO DO, AND I ALWAYS CHANGE MY MIND, SO... SECOND FLOOR.

Man: SO IF YOU WANT TO BE SAFE, YOU TURN THE LIGHTS OFF FIRST.

Pfaff: IS THAT GOING TO WORK, BOB?

Bob: YEAH.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WAS IT THE WIRING OR... OH, THIS?

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK, I SUSPECT...

THE BALLAST?

THE FAULTY BALLAST, YEAH.

THAT'S THE... IS THAT THE BRAND NEW ONE?

NO.

LOOK AT THAT.

THAT'S LIKE THE DRAIN IN MY BATHTUB, MAN -- SWEET.

MORE, MORE, MORE, MORE, MORE... SECOND FLOOR.

Pfaff: YOU COME OFF THE ELEVATORS, AND THERE'S A PRETTY BIG OBSTACLE IN FRONT OF YOU, THIS KIND OF DOUBLE CONE.

I ASSUMED ONE WOULD GO TO THE RIGHT.

THERE'S A KIND OF NATURAL ROUTE.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IT WOULD BE WALKED COUNTER-CLOCKWISE, JUST BECAUSE THE LAYOUT OF THE GALLERY.

I RECEIVED TWO EMAILS.

THEY'D JUST SEEN THE SHOW, AND BOTH OF THEM TALKED ABOUT SADNESS AND LOSS.

AND I THOUGHT "WELL, I'M GLAD THAT THEY SAW THAT IN THAT.

"'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT, THAT'S WHAT DROVE IT, THAT'S WHAT I ANTICIPATED."

WHEN WE WERE FINISHING UP THE SHOW, ONCE WE STOPPED MAKING A LOT OF MESS, THERE WAS A STRAIGHT VIEW PAST THE DRAWING ROOM INTO A FAR BACK ROOM, AND I REMEMBERED THAT THEY HAD AN AL HELD PAINTING, A BLACK AND WHITE, THAT IF IT WAS PUT UP, IT WOULD JUST FILL THAT SLOT THROUGH THE GALLERY.

I THINK I'M VERY ROMANTIC.

THAT'S WHERE THESE SCRIMS AND THESE STRUCTURES, WHY THEY'RE AROUND.

SO I THINK THERE ARE THESE LEVELS, LIKE THE THING THAT I WAS GIVEN WAS WAY TOO MUCH ROMANCE, WAY TOO MUCH EMOTION, AND NOT ENOUGH OF THESE OTHER THINGS, WHICH ARE HARD FOR ME TO GET TO.

SO THE WORK IS TO GET TO THE OTHER LEVELS.

TO THE SILENCE, TO THE...

THE BREATH, TO A SWEETER SENSE OF THINGS.

Huyghe (French accent): AS I START A PROJECT, I ALWAYS NEED TO CREATE A WORLD.

THEN I WANT TO ENTER THIS WORLD AND MY WALK THROUGH THIS WORLD IS THE WORK.

WHAT TAKES ME A LONG TIME IS TO CREATE THE WORLD.

"CELEBRATION PARK AT THE TATE" IS A COLLECTION OF EXHIBITION.

A SET OF VERY SINGULAR EXPERIENCE.

WHAT PEOPLE CAN THINK IF THEY ENTER THE TATE AND THEY SEE, "I DO NOT OWN SNOW WHITE."

EVERYONE WHO SAW SNOW WHITE OWNS SNOW WHITE, OF COURSE.

YOU NEED TO PLAY WITH THIS CULTURE IN ORDER TO BE PART OF IT.

I THINK SOMEONE WHO SAY I DO NOT OWN SNOW WHITE, HE UNDERSTAND THAT MAYBE HE CAN START TO PLAY WITH IT.

IT'S ABOUT THE CIRCULATION OF STORIES.

IT'S ABOUT HOW WE CAN TELL STORY TO EACH OTHER, AND HOW THIS IS REALLY FLUID, OR HOW THIS IS NOT SO MUCH FLUID.

THAT'S WHY THERE IS THESE DOORS MOVING IN THIS ROOM, THE THRESHOLD, YOU WOULD SAY, THAT YOU ARE INSIDE SOMETHING OR YOU ARE OUTSIDE SOMETHING.

IF THE THRESHOLD IS MOVING, THE DOORS ARE MOVING, THERE IS NO MORE THRESHOLD.

THERE IS NO MORE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE.

IT IS DEFINITELY ABOUT BOUNDARIES -- ABOUT CULTURE AND BOUNDARIES.

THESE NEONS AND THESE DOORS ARE IN A CERTAIN WAY LINKED.

SOMEWHERE SHOULD EXIST AN ISLAND.

I HEARD, IT'S A RUMOR, I READ, I MET PEOPLE AND THEY SAY, THERE IS THIS WHITE CREATURE ON THIS ISLAND.

I'M ACTUALLY NOW TAKING A BOAT ACROSS THE DRAKE CHANNEL TO FIND OUT IF THIS IS TRUE OR IT IS NOT TRUE, TO FIND THIS TERRITORY, AND THIS CREATURE.

I'M FILMING THE ACTUAL JOURNEY, AND I'M FILMING AN EQUIVALENCE, A KIND OF TRANSLATION OF THIS JOURNEY IN THE FORM OF AN OPERA IN CENTRAL PARK.

[ DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYS ] I ASKED THE COMPOSER TO TAKE THE SHAPE OF THIS ISLAND... AND TRANSFORM THE SHAPE INTO A MUSICAL SCORE FOR A SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA.

SO HE'S PLAYING THE MOUNTAIN, HE'S PLAYING THE ISLAND.

THE SPACE IS TRANSFORMED INTO TIME.

WE HAVE WALK ON THE MOON, WE HAVE WALK IN THE SNOW OF THE ANTARCTICA, WE HAVE CONQUEST THE WORLD, SO WE HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN DISTANCE, LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU KNOW AND THEY KNOW.

SO THEN ANOTHER PLAY CAN START.

THE OTHER PLAY IS THAT NOW WE DON'T KNOW IF I WENT THERE.

WE DON'T KNOW IF I SAW THIS ISLAND, IF I SAW THIS WHITE CREATURE, MAYBE I DID, MAYBE IT'S A SPECIAL EFFECT, PEOPLE DON'T KNOW.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR ME IS TO CREATE HOLES IN THE MAP.

PUT WHITE ON THE MAP.

BY DOING SO YOU BRING BACK SOME MYTH, CREATE A ZONE OF NON-KNOWLEDGE, BLUR CERTITUDE.

I'M TRYING TO BE LESS NARRATIVE, MORE AN EMOTIONAL LANDSCAPE THAT I'M TRYING TO REACH HERE.

I WANT PEOPLE TO EXPERIENCE MORE AN EMOTION THAN TO EXPERIENCE JUST A SIMPLE NARRATION.

[ ICE CRUNCHING ] I WAS INVITED TO DO SOMETHING ON THE BUILDING OF LE CORBUSIER, THE ONLY BUILDING HE BUILT IN NORTH AMERICA.

THIS BUILDING IS PART OF THE HARVARD CAMPUS, IT'S AN ART CENTER AND IT'S ALSO AN ART DEPARTMENT.

I START TO HAVE SOME PROBLEM WITH THE COMMISSION, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO, AND FINALLY, I FIND A BOOK ON HOW LE CORBUSIER HAD SOME PROBLEM TO DO HIMSELF HIS COMMISSION.

I DECIDE I'M GOING TO DO A PLAY, KIND OF A SATIRE, AN IRONIC PARABLE OF THE TWO SITUATION.

IT'S NONVERBAL, MUSIC IS FROM XENAKIS AND VARESE WHO COLLABORATE WITH LE CORBUSIER AT ONE POINT.

THERE IS THE CURATOR WHO INVITE ME ACTUALLY TO DO THIS PROJECT.

AND THEN OF COURSE YOU HAVE LE CORBUSIER AND THE PEOPLE WHO COMMISSION LE CORBUSIER.

SO THERE'S A PERFECT SYMMETRY.

YOU HAVE THIS BLACK FIGURE WHO LOOK LIKE A PRAYING MANTIS, DARTH VADER, IS THE DEAN OF THE DEAN, THE INSTITUTION.

[ CHIRPS ] THERE'S THIS LITTLE RED BIRD, WHICH COME FROM AN ANECDOTE THAT LE CORBUSIER WROTE.

HE WAS DREAMING THAT BIRDS WILL BRING SOME SEEDS ON THIS BUILDING AND THE SEED WILL GROW.

THE THEATER HAS BEEN BUILT IN COLLABORATION WITH THIS ARCHITECT.

THE IDEA WAS TO BUILD SOMETHING BETWEEN THE ROOTS AND A TUMOR, SOMETHING THAT YOU FEEL WILL GROW AS A TUMOR FROM THE BUILDING, AND WITHIN THIS TUMOR, YOU WILL HAVE THE PLAY.

[ PIANO PLAYING ] THERE IS SOMETHING IRREVERENT THAT I'M TRYING TO EMBODY IN A CERTAIN WAY.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT HUMOR WAS A WAY TO BROKE THE RULE OF POWER.

[ MAN SINGING IN FRENCH ] Huyghe: WHEN IT COME TO THE TRANSCENDENTAL BEAUTY OF THE WORK, EVEN THE POLITIC OF THE WORK, EVEN THE CRITICAL LEVEL OF THE WORK, I THINK HUMOR IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO BREAK EVEN THE POSSIBILITY OF CRITICAL JUDGMENT.

TO BE ABOVE THAT.

AND I THINK THAT'S A LANGUAGE THAT IS VERY IMMEDIATE.

I REALLY LIKE THE SPEED OF HUMOR.

I'M NOT INTEREST ABOUT FILMING THE REALITY AS IT IS GIVEN.

AND I'M NOT INTEREST ABOUT BUILDING FICTION.

WHAT I'M INTEREST IN IS TO SET UP A REALITY, TO PRODUCE A REALITY, AND THEN, ONLY THEN, DOCUMENT THIS REALITY.

I DID FOR EXAMPLE A CELEBRATION NORTH OF NEW YORK, STREAMSIDE IS A LITTLE TOWN UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

I'M LOOKING FOR WHAT ALL THESE PEOPLE HAVE IN COMMON AND I FIND SOMETHING VERY BASIC, WHICH IS THEY ALL NEED THE NATURE, WHICH IS THIS PLACE THAT I'VE FOUND.

AND ON THAT VERY, VERY SIMPLE BASE, I INVENT A SCRIPT PROGRAM AND I FILM THAT.

WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS A REENACTMENT OF THE BEGINNING OF BAMBI, THE IDEA OF A PURE, IDEAL NATURE.

AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS THIS DEER GETTING FROM THIS NATURE TO THIS NEW TOWN.

THIS DEER GO FROM SOMETHING WHICH HAS A CERTAIN COMPLEXITY, THE NATURE TO THIS KIND OF WHITE CUBE, AND THEN THE FILM START AGAIN AND NOW YOU SEE A LITTLE GIRL AT HER HOME AND THEN SHE'S JUST GOING TO TRAVEL FROM HER OLD HOME TO HER NEW HOME.

SO IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME MOVEMENT.

ONCE IS BY THE ANIMAL, ONCE IS BY HUMAN.

THAT IS THE BASE OF THIS TRADITION, THIS CELEBRATION, THIS CUSTOM.

WHAT YOU SEE IN THE SECOND PART OF THE FILM IS THE ACTUAL CELEBRATION, THEY CELEBRATE THAT.

[ PLAYING FLUTE ] Huyghe: I ORGANIZE A WHOLE CELEBRATION FROM THE PARADE TO THE CONCERT TO THE FOOD TO THE MAYOR AND A GIRL'S SPEECH TO THE KIDS PLAYING TO EVERYTHING.

Man: TESTING, OKAY.

Huyghe: IN A CERTAIN WAY, IT'S A SCRIPT.

IT'S A RECIPE.

GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYONE.

Huyghe: IT'S A SCORE.

THE SCORE CAN BE PLAY AGAIN NEXT YEAR AT THE SAME TIME ON OCTOBER 11, JUST TAKE THIS SHEET OF PAPER AND YOU SAY "PARADE," AND YOU SAY, "AND PARK," AND THE DAY UNFOLD.

FOR ME, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, THIS IDEA THAT YOU SET UP THIS PERFORMANCE BECAUSE IT'S IN THE LOOP OF THE YEAR, YOU WILL JUST COME BACK AND COME BACK AND COME BACK.

THAT'S WHAT INTEREST ME, TO PRODUCE A TIME, A DURATION THAT WILL JUST COME BACK IN TIME.

I'M BUILDING A KIND OF MYTHOLOGY.

Man:♫AND IT'S A STREAMSIDE CELEBRATION♫ Huyghe: THEN PEOPLE PLAY THIS MYTHOLOGY IN THE FORM OF A PARTY, WHICH WE CALL CELEBRATION, ONE TIME A YEAR, WE HAVE A SCORE, AND THEN YOU HAVE AN INTERPRETATION.

MY WORKS SINCE '94 HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT THIS TIME-BASE PROTOCOL, TIME-BASE WORK.

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT THE EXHIBITION ITSELF, THE EXHIBITION BEING A STARTING POINT.

USUALLY AN ARTIST THINK AN EXHIBITION AS AN END POINT, A RESOLUTION OF SOMETHING.

HE'S WORKING IN HIS STUDIO AND THEN THERE'S A PROCESS, AT THE END OF THIS PROCESS HE'S PRESENTING HIS WORK IN WHAT WE CALL AN EXHIBITION.

I'M NOT INTEREST ABOUT THAT.

I'M INTEREST THAT THE EXHIBITION IS NOT THE END OF A PROCESS, BUT IS THE STARTING POINT TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

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