[soft electronic music] [soft electronic music] >> IF YOU WORK CONSCIENTIOUSLY >> IF YOU WORK CONSCIENTIOUSLY AND HARD AT IT AND THERE IS AND HARD AT IT AND THERE IS SOMETHING INSIDE YOU THAT SOMETHING INSIDE YOU THAT IS OF INTEREST, THAT IS WHAT IS OF INTEREST, THAT IS WHAT WILL COME OUT.

WILL COME OUT.

YOU YOURSELF WILL BE THE FILM.

YOU YOURSELF WILL BE THE FILM.

THE FILM WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.

THE FILM WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.

>> IF I DIDN'T LOOK AT ALL OF >> IF I DIDN'T LOOK AT ALL OF THAT TRAUMA AND THE SADNESS OF THAT TRAUMA AND THE SADNESS OF THE LAST 40 YEARS, THEN I REALLY THE LAST 40 YEARS, THEN I REALLY WASN'T WORTH MY SALT.

WASN'T WORTH MY SALT.

>> I AM A THIRD-WORLD ARTIST.

>> I AM A THIRD-WORLD ARTIST.

FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM, FROM PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE DEFEATED THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE DEFEATED PEOPLE, IT'S WHAT I'M SEEING.

PEOPLE, IT'S WHAT I'M SEEING.

I'M LOOKING AT THE WORLD.

>> TAKE A HALF A STEP THIS WAY.

>> TAKE A HALF A STEP THIS WAY.

THAT'S IT.

THAT'S IT.

OKAY, ARE WE KIND OF-- OKAY, ARE WE KIND OF-- OH, I KNOW WHAT I'D BETTER DO OH, I KNOW WHAT I'D BETTER DO IS JUST CHECK MY SOUND ON THIS.

IS JUST CHECK MY SOUND ON THIS.

IT'S--NO, IT'S KIND OF NICE.

IT'S--NO, IT'S KIND OF NICE.

THE BLACK IS GOOD.

THE BLACK IS GOOD.

>> BETTER?

>> BETTER?

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

>> THERE WAS ONE SINGER I KNEW >> THERE WAS ONE SINGER I KNEW WHO USED TO--ALWAYS FIRST, SHE'D WHO USED TO--ALWAYS FIRST, SHE'D START THE DAY BY CHECKING IF HER START THE DAY BY CHECKING IF HER VOICE WAS THERE, AND SHE'D GO... VOICE WAS THERE, AND SHE'D GO... [hums an arpeggio] [hums an arpeggio] >> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> THE HIGH--THOSE KIND >> THE HIGH--THOSE KIND OF CRAZY SOUNDS.

OF CRAZY SOUNDS.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> THE PIECE THAT'S BEING MADE >> THE PIECE THAT'S BEING MADE HERE IS DESIGNED TO BE SHOWN ON HERE IS DESIGNED TO BE SHOWN ON THE FIRE SCREEN AT LA FENICE THE FIRE SCREEN AT LA FENICE OPERA HOUSE IN VENICE.

OPERA HOUSE IN VENICE.

AND THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT THEY AND THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT THEY GET--HAVE A PROJECTION ON THE GET--HAVE A PROJECTION ON THE FIRE SCREEN WHILE THE AUDIENCE FIRE SCREEN WHILE THE AUDIENCE COMES IN AND THE ORCHESTRA IS COMES IN AND THE ORCHESTRA IS TUNING UP.

TUNING UP.

>> [singing arpeggios] [singing over cell phone] [singing over cell phone] HELLO.

HELLO.

>> HELLO, THIS IS THE-- >> HELLO, THIS IS THE-- THIS IS THE PIANIST CALLING, ALL THIS IS THE PIANIST CALLING, ALL THE WAY FROM WILLIAM'S HOUSE.

THE WAY FROM WILLIAM'S HOUSE.

[chuckles] [chuckles] SO, KIM, SO, KIM, WHAT I'LL DO IS, I'LL PLAY YOU WHAT I'LL DO IS, I'LL PLAY YOU SOME CHORDS, SOME CHORDS, AND THEN I'M GONNA KIND OF PLAY AND THEN I'M GONNA KIND OF PLAY ALONG WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT, ALONG WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT, OKAY?

OKAY?

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> HOLD ON.

>> HOLD ON.

I'M GOING TO SPEAK TO YOU NOW.

I'M GOING TO SPEAK TO YOU NOW.

HOLD ON.

HOLD ON.

OKAY, LET'S PUT THAT THERE.

OKAY, LET'S PUT THAT THERE.

JUST TALK A BIT.

JUST TALK A BIT.

SING--SING A BIT.

SING--SING A BIT.

DON'T TALK A BIT.

DON'T TALK A BIT.

>> [singing in foreign language] >> GOOD.

HANG ON.

>> GOOD.

HANG ON.

I'M JUST TRYING TO LINE THIS UP.

I'M JUST TRYING TO LINE THIS UP.

THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

OKAY, ALL RIGHT, HERE WE GO.

OKAY, ALL RIGHT, HERE WE GO.

ALL RIGHT.

ALL RIGHT.

[plays arpeggios on piano] [plays arpeggios on piano] CAN YOU HEAR THE-- CAN YOU HEAR THE-- >> YES.

>> YES.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

WHEN YOU'RE READY.

WHEN YOU'RE READY.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> [singing opera music] >> [singing opera music] >> KIMMY?

KIMMY?

STOP.

>> KIMMY?

KIMMY?

STOP.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY, LET'S JUST DO THAT >> OKAY, LET'S JUST DO THAT PHRASE...

PHRASE... [plays tune on piano] [plays tune on piano] >> LET ME JUST SAY SOMETHING TO >> LET ME JUST SAY SOMETHING TO YOU AND PHILIP.

YOU AND PHILIP.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY, TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> OKAY, TO BOTH OF YOU.

PHIL?

PHIL?

SORRY, WILLIAM HERE.

SORRY, WILLIAM HERE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WOULD BE GOOD IS TO NOT SO MUCH REPEAT GOOD IS TO NOT SO MUCH REPEAT A WHOLE PHRASE BUT TO JUMP-- A WHOLE PHRASE BUT TO JUMP-- TO BREAK IN THE MIDDLE TO BREAK IN THE MIDDLE OF A PHRASE AND REPEAT.

OF A PHRASE AND REPEAT.

SO LIKE WHERE YOU'VE GOT, SO LIKE WHERE YOU'VE GOT, "BABBO, PIETA," "BABBO, PIETA," BUT TO...

BUT TO... BABBO PIE-- BABBO PIE-- BABBO PIE-- BABBO PIE-- TRY THIS--WHEN YOU COMPLETE IT TRY THIS--WHEN YOU COMPLETE IT AT THE "TA," IT FEELS TOO AT THE "TA," IT FEELS TOO ELEGANT AS A COMPLETED GESTURE.

>> [singing in foreign language] YES.

YES.

OKAY.

OKAY.

>> MAKE A STRIPE WITH THE >> MAKE A STRIPE WITH THE BIAS CUT?

BIAS CUT?

OR YOU PREFER WHAT?

OR YOU PREFER WHAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THIS...

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THIS... [both speaking quietly] >> I WORK WITH A WONDERFUL OPERA >> I WORK WITH A WONDERFUL OPERA SINGER WHO LIVES IN CAPE TOWN.

SINGER WHO LIVES IN CAPE TOWN.

SO I CALLED HER, AND I SAID, SO I CALLED HER, AND I SAID, "KIMMY, WOULD YOU SING THIS "KIMMY, WOULD YOU SING THIS ARIETTA ON THE PHONE, AND I'LL ARIETTA ON THE PHONE, AND I'LL SORT OF SIT AT THE PIANO AND SORT OF SIT AT THE PIANO AND GIVE YOU THE KEY.

GIVE YOU THE KEY.

IT HAS A SORT OF UNCANNY SOUND IT HAS A SORT OF UNCANNY SOUND OF BOTH OLD AND MODERN AND OF BOTH OLD AND MODERN AND CONTEMPORARY.

CONTEMPORARY.

>> INITIALLY, HE'D--I THINK HE'D >> INITIALLY, HE'D--I THINK HE'D DONE THE RECORDING ON THE CELL DONE THE RECORDING ON THE CELL PHONE AS A GUIDE TRACK.

PHONE AS A GUIDE TRACK.

AND THEN WHEN WE HEARD THE AND THEN WHEN WE HEARD THE RECORDING ON THE CELL PHONE, WE RECORDING ON THE CELL PHONE, WE SAID LET'S KEEP IT AND WORK WITH SAID LET'S KEEP IT AND WORK WITH THAT STRANGE, CARUSO-ESQUE, THAT STRANGE, CARUSO-ESQUE, OLD QUALITY OF THE VOICE, OLD QUALITY OF THE VOICE, WHICH IS WHY TODAY THERE ARE-- WHICH IS WHY TODAY THERE ARE-- WE'RE WORKING WITH IMAGES OF WE'RE WORKING WITH IMAGES OF KIMMY ON THE CELL PHONE.

KIMMY ON THE CELL PHONE.

>> IT WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE >> IT WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHICH HAPPENED WHEN MOMENTS WHICH HAPPENED WHEN I WORK WITH WILLIAM, WHERE WE I WORK WITH WILLIAM, WHERE WE BOTH WENT OFF AND PLAYED, BOTH WENT OFF AND PLAYED, AND THE PLAYING WORKED.

AND THE PLAYING WORKED.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT WORKING WITH WILLIAM THAT WORKING WITH WILLIAM THAT I ENJOY SO MUCH IS THE ABILITY I ENJOY SO MUCH IS THE ABILITY TO PLAY AND EXPERIMENT.

TO PLAY AND EXPERIMENT.

>> [singing high notes] >> [singing high notes] [voice breaks slightly] [voice breaks slightly] [clears throat] [clears throat] [crackly recording [crackly recording of Kimmy singing] >> I SUPPOSE THE FIRST >> I SUPPOSE THE FIRST PROMPTINGS TO WORK AS AN ARTIST PROMPTINGS TO WORK AS AN ARTIST ARE STILL THERE.

ARE STILL THERE.

THE QUESTIONS HAVEN'T CHANGED.

THE QUESTIONS HAVEN'T CHANGED.

HOW DOES ONE FIND A WAY OF HOW DOES ONE FIND A WAY OF NOT NECESSARILY ILLUSTRATING NOT NECESSARILY ILLUSTRATING THE SOCIETY THAT ONE LIVES IN THE SOCIETY THAT ONE LIVES IN BUT ALLOWING WHAT HAPPENS THERE BUT ALLOWING WHAT HAPPENS THERE TO BE PART OF THE WORK, TO BE PART OF THE WORK, PART OF THE VOCABULARY, PART OF THE VOCABULARY, PART OF THE RAW MATERIAL PART OF THE RAW MATERIAL THAT IS DEALT WITH.

THAT IS DEALT WITH.

SOUTH AFRICA IS VERY MUCH SOUTH AFRICA IS VERY MUCH PART OF THE WORK.

PART OF THE WORK.

[Kimmy's singing continues] [Kimmy's singing continues] [singing fades out] [singing fades out] [somber instrumental music] [somber instrumental music] THE IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE FIRST ANIMATED FILMS I MADE IS, FIRST ANIMATED FILMS I MADE IS, THEY WERE DONE AS A RESPONSE TO THEY WERE DONE AS A RESPONSE TO DOING SOMETHING WHICH I THOUGHT DOING SOMETHING WHICH I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD, WHICH WAS MAKING I UNDERSTOOD, WHICH WAS MAKING CHARCOAL DRAWINGS.

CHARCOAL DRAWINGS.

SO THEY WERE DONE ON THE BASIS SO THEY WERE DONE ON THE BASIS OF TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM OF TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM A PROGRAM OF DOING DRAWINGS, A PROGRAM OF DOING DRAWINGS, HAVING EXHIBITIONS, IN WHICH HAVING EXHIBITIONS, IN WHICH I COULD SEE MY LIFE HEADING OUT I COULD SEE MY LIFE HEADING OUT AHEAD OF ME, 13 MORE SOLO AHEAD OF ME, 13 MORE SOLO EXHIBITIONS OF CHARCOAL EXHIBITIONS OF CHARCOAL DRAWINGS.

DRAWINGS.

SO I DECIDED I HAD TO DO SO I DECIDED I HAD TO DO SOMETHING THAT COULDN'T POSSIBLY SOMETHING THAT COULDN'T POSSIBLY FIT INTO THAT CONTEXT, THAT FIT INTO THAT CONTEXT, THAT WASN'T GOING TO BE IN A GALLERY, WASN'T GOING TO BE IN A GALLERY, THAT WAS DONE FOR MY OWN THAT WAS DONE FOR MY OWN INTEREST AND PLEASURE, INTEREST AND PLEASURE, AND SOHO AND FELIX CAME OUT AND SOHO AND FELIX CAME OUT OF THAT.

THERE WAS NO EXPECTATION THEY THERE WAS NO EXPECTATION THEY WOULD BE PART OF THE REAL WORK WOULD BE PART OF THE REAL WORK I WAS DOING, THAT THEY WOULD I WAS DOING, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO BE UNDERSTOOD OR JUSTIFY HAVE TO BE UNDERSTOOD OR JUSTIFY THEMSELVES IN A BROADER WORLD THEMSELVES IN A BROADER WORLD AT ALL OR THAT THEY HAD TO EVEN AT ALL OR THAT THEY HAD TO EVEN HAVE A LOGIC TO THEM.

HAVE A LOGIC TO THEM.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE ISN'T IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE ISN'T A STORY BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRYING A STORY BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRYING TO SELL IT TO A PRODUCER; TO SELL IT TO A PRODUCER; IT'S NOT STARTING WITH IT'S NOT STARTING WITH DISTRIBUTION.

DISTRIBUTION.

IT'S STARTING WITH ITS OWN CRAZY IT'S STARTING WITH ITS OWN CRAZY LOGIC, SO IT DOESN'T MATTER LOGIC, SO IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THESE TWO CHARACTERS ARE WHO THESE TWO CHARACTERS ARE OR WHAT THEIR NAMES ARE.

OR WHAT THEIR NAMES ARE.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO REPRESENT THEY DON'T HAVE TO REPRESENT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES IN THE ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES IN THE FILM.

FILM.

IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO KIND OF UNDERSTAND THAT, AND KIND OF UNDERSTAND THAT, AND THAT WAS THE SUBSTANTIVE WORK THAT WAS THE SUBSTANTIVE WORK I WAS DOING.

I WAS DOING.

AND SO THAT EXPERIENCE GAVE ME AND SO THAT EXPERIENCE GAVE ME A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE VALIDITY OF WORKING WITHOUT VALIDITY OF WORKING WITHOUT A PROGRAM, WITHOUT THE ESSAY A PROGRAM, WITHOUT THE ESSAY BEING WRITTEN IN ADVANCE.

BEING WRITTEN IN ADVANCE.

I MADE A DECISION I WOULD NEVER I MADE A DECISION I WOULD NEVER EVER WRITE A SCRIPT; I WOULD EVER WRITE A SCRIPT; I WOULD NEVER WRITE A STORYBOARD; NEVER WRITE A STORYBOARD; I WOULD NEVER EVER WRITE I WOULD NEVER EVER WRITE A PROPOSAL.

A PROPOSAL.

[water burbling] [water burbling] THE HISTORY OF JEWS IN SOUTH THE HISTORY OF JEWS IN SOUTH AFRICA IS QUITE COMPLEX IN THE AFRICA IS QUITE COMPLEX IN THE SENSE THAT THERE WERE, AS THERE SENSE THAT THERE WERE, AS THERE ARE IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD, ARE IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD, AN ABSOLUTE OVERREPRESENTATIVE AN ABSOLUTE OVERREPRESENTATIVE NUMBER OF JEWISH PEOPLE WHO WERE NUMBER OF JEWISH PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN LIBERATION INVOLVED IN LIBERATION STRUGGLES, IN FIGHTS AGAINST STRUGGLES, IN FIGHTS AGAINST APARTHEID, WHO HAD VERY APARTHEID, WHO HAD VERY HONORABLE, ETHICAL, HONORABLE, ETHICAL, AND MORAL LIVES.

AND MORAL LIVES.

BUT THERE WERE ALSO A LARGE BUT THERE WERE ALSO A LARGE NUMBER OF JEWISH PEOPLE WHO DID NUMBER OF JEWISH PEOPLE WHO DID VERY WELL UNDER THE NATIONALIST VERY WELL UNDER THE NATIONALIST GOVERNMENT, WHO MADE A LOT OF GOVERNMENT, WHO MADE A LOT OF MONEY THROUGH IT.

MONEY THROUGH IT.

[faint, repetitive tapping] [faint, repetitive tapping] THE DEPICTION OF SOHO AND FELIX, THE DEPICTION OF SOHO AND FELIX, WHO ARE BOTH JEWISH, WHO ARE BOTH JEWISH, SO IN THE--SOHO'S A JEWISH SO IN THE--SOHO'S A JEWISH BUSINESSMAN.

BUSINESSMAN.

IT HAS TO DO WITH THAT IT HAS TO DO WITH THAT DOUBLE EDGE.

DOUBLE EDGE.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY EASY TO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY EASY TO HAVE DONE--SAY, "OKAY, I'M GONNA HAVE DONE--SAY, "OKAY, I'M GONNA DRAW A TERRIBLE AFRIKANER AND DRAW A TERRIBLE AFRIKANER AND MAKE HIM ENTIRELY SEPARATE AND MAKE HIM ENTIRELY SEPARATE AND DISTANT FROM MYSELF."

DISTANT FROM MYSELF."

WHEREAS, THE SOHO IS A KIND OF WHEREAS, THE SOHO IS A KIND OF UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT'S PART UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT'S PART OF WHO I AM.

OF WHO I AM.

THE PINSTRIPE--SOMEONE WHO THE PINSTRIPE--SOMEONE WHO ALWAYS WEARS A PINSTRIPE SUIT ALWAYS WEARS A PINSTRIPE SUIT IS FROM A PHOTOGRAPH OF MY IS FROM A PHOTOGRAPH OF MY GRANDFATHER.

GRANDFATHER.

THE TWO NAMES CAME OUT THE TWO NAMES CAME OUT OF A DREAM, AND IT CAME OUT OF OF A DREAM, AND IT CAME OUT OF THE PERIOD WHEN I SAID, "I'M THE PERIOD WHEN I SAID, "I'M MAKING THIS FILM FOR MYSELF.

MAKING THIS FILM FOR MYSELF.

I DON'T HAVE TO QUESTION I DON'T HAVE TO QUESTION WHO THESE NAMES ARE WHO THESE NAMES ARE OR WHAT THEY MEAN."

[cat meows] I THEN UNDERSTOOD LATER ON I THEN UNDERSTOOD LATER ON THAT THEY'RE BOTH A KIND OF THAT THEY'RE BOTH A KIND OF SELF-PORTRAIT, A SELF-PORTRAIT SELF-PORTRAIT, A SELF-PORTRAIT IN THE THIRD PERSON, IN THE THIRD PERSON, AND A PLACE SELF-PORTRAIT.

AND A PLACE SELF-PORTRAIT.

SO THE FILMS HAVE HAD TO SO THE FILMS HAVE HAD TO EITHER DEFEND THEMSELVES OR EITHER DEFEND THEMSELVES OR IGNORE, BUT THEY'VE CERTAINLY IGNORE, BUT THEY'VE CERTAINLY BEEN ACCUSED OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

BEEN ACCUSED OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

IN MANY WAYS, THE WORK SEEMS IN MANY WAYS, THE WORK SEEMS UNBEARABLY SEMITIC TO ME, UNBEARABLY SEMITIC TO ME, IN THE SENSE IT DEALS ENDLESSLY IN THE SENSE IT DEALS ENDLESSLY WITH MEMORY, WITH LOSS, ALL THE WITH MEMORY, WITH LOSS, ALL THE KIND OF CLICHES THAT YOU THINK, KIND OF CLICHES THAT YOU THINK, "OH, THIS IS WHAT A JEWISH "OH, THIS IS WHAT A JEWISH ARTIST IS GOING TO BE TALKING ARTIST IS GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT," AND IT'S KIND OF ABOUT," AND IT'S KIND OF DISTRESSING FOR ME THAT THEY GET DISTRESSING FOR ME THAT THEY GET STUCK IN THAT TERRAIN, BUT THAT STUCK IN THAT TERRAIN, BUT THAT IS WHERE THEY ARE.

THE FILMS OPENED AN ENORMOUS THE FILMS OPENED AN ENORMOUS DOOR BECAUSE THEY GAVE ME DOOR BECAUSE THEY GAVE ME A SENSE THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE A SENSE THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO WORK WITHOUT A PROGRAM TO WORK WITHOUT A PROGRAM IN ADVANCE AND THAT IT WAS IN ADVANCE AND THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO MAKE A FILM WITHOUT POSSIBLE TO MAKE A FILM WITHOUT FIRST HAVING WRITTEN A SCRIPT... FIRST HAVING WRITTEN A SCRIPT... >> [woman singing] >> [woman singing] >> THAT IF YOU WORK >> THAT IF YOU WORK CONSCIENTIOUSLY AND HARD AT IT CONSCIENTIOUSLY AND HARD AT IT AND THERE IS SOMETHING INSIDE AND THERE IS SOMETHING INSIDE YOU THAT IS OF INTEREST, THAT IS YOU THAT IS OF INTEREST, THAT IS WHAT WILL COME OUT.

WHAT WILL COME OUT.

YOU YOURSELF WILL BE THE FILM.

YOU YOURSELF WILL BE THE FILM.

THE FILM WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.

THE FILM WILL ALWAYS BE YOU.

I THINK A LOT OF THE WORK THAT I THINK A LOT OF THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE SINCE THEN, I'VE DONE SINCE THEN, EVEN IF IT'S NOT USING EVEN IF IT'S NOT USING THAT TECHNIQUE, HAS CERTAINLY THAT TECHNIQUE, HAS CERTAINLY USED THAT STRATEGY, USED THAT STRATEGY, THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IMAGES THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IMAGES AND MOVEMENT AS WELL AS AND MOVEMENT AS WELL AS STATIC IMAGES ARE A KEY THING STATIC IMAGES ARE A KEY THING FOR ME TO BE WORKING ON.

FOR ME TO BE WORKING ON.

THE PROVISIONALITY OF DRAWINGS, THE PROVISIONALITY OF DRAWINGS, THE FACT THAT THEY'RE GOING TO THE FACT THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE SUCCEEDED BY THE NEXT STAGE BE SUCCEEDED BY THE NEXT STAGE OF THE DRAWING, WAS VERY GOOD OF THE DRAWING, WAS VERY GOOD FOR SOMEONE WHO'S BAD AT KNOWING FOR SOMEONE WHO'S BAD AT KNOWING WHEN TO COMMIT SOMETHING TO WHEN TO COMMIT SOMETHING TO BEING FINISHED, TO SAY, "WHEN IS BEING FINISHED, TO SAY, "WHEN IS THIS DRAWING FINISHED?"

THIS DRAWING FINISHED?"

HERE, THE DRAWING WOULD GO ON HERE, THE DRAWING WOULD GO ON TILL THE SEQUENCE WAS FINISHED TILL THE SEQUENCE WAS FINISHED IN THE FILM, AND THAT WOULD BE IN THE FILM, AND THAT WOULD BE THE END POINT OF THE DRAWING...

THE END POINT OF THE DRAWING... [faint rumbling] [faint rumbling] UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD AS PROCESS RATHER THAN AS FACT.

AS PROCESS RATHER THAN AS FACT.

AND TEMPERAMENTALLY, ALL OF AND TEMPERAMENTALLY, ALL OF THOSE THINGS MADE SENSE TO ME, THOSE THINGS MADE SENSE TO ME, AND INTELLECTUALLY THEY MADE AND INTELLECTUALLY THEY MADE SENSE TO ME.

SENSE TO ME.

AND SOMEHOW THIS TECHNIQUE AND AND SOMEHOW THIS TECHNIQUE AND THIS MEDIUM EMPHASIZED OR THIS MEDIUM EMPHASIZED OR ALLOWED THAT TO COME FORWARD.

ALLOWED THAT TO COME FORWARD.

[cat meows] IN THE ANAMORPHIC FILM IN THE ANAMORPHIC FILM WHAT WILL COME (HAS ALREADY WHAT WILL COME (HAS ALREADY WHICH IS ABOUT THE WHICH IS ABOUT THE ITALIAN-ETHIOPIAN WAR ITALIAN-ETHIOPIAN WAR OF THE 1930s, OF THE 1930s, WORKS ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT WHAT WORKS ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT WHAT IS DISTORTED IN THE PROJECTION IS DISTORTED IN THE PROJECTION GETS CORRECTED IN THE VIEWERS' GETS CORRECTED IN THE VIEWERS' SEEING OF IT IN A MIRROR.

SEEING OF IT IN A MIRROR.

SO THE DISTORTION IS THE SO THE DISTORTION IS THE CORRECTION, AND THE ORIGINAL CORRECTION, AND THE ORIGINAL IS THE DISTORTED.

IS THE DISTORTED.

ONE OF THE THINGS OF DOING THE ONE OF THE THINGS OF DOING THE FILM, OR DOING THE DRAWINGS, FILM, OR DOING THE DRAWINGS, WAS LEARNING THE GRAMMAR OF THE WAS LEARNING THE GRAMMAR OF THE TRANSFORMATIONS THAT HAPPEN WHEN TRANSFORMATIONS THAT HAPPEN WHEN YOU GO FROM A FLAT SURFACE TO YOU GO FROM A FLAT SURFACE TO THE CURVED MIRROR.

THE CURVED MIRROR.

SO THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DRAW SO THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE IS RELATIVELY A STRAIGHT LINE IS RELATIVELY COMPLICATED BECAUSE EVERY COMPLICATED BECAUSE EVERY STRAIGHT LINE IS IN FACT STRAIGHT LINE IS IN FACT A CURVE, WHEREAS EVERY STRAIGHT A CURVE, WHEREAS EVERY STRAIGHT LINE THAT YOU DRAW BECOMES LINE THAT YOU DRAW BECOMES A PARABOLA.

A PARABOLA.

SO LOOPS, TELEPHONE WIRES SO LOOPS, TELEPHONE WIRES ARE VERY EASY.

ARE VERY EASY.

SIMPLY DRAW A SERIES OF STRAIGHT SIMPLY DRAW A SERIES OF STRAIGHT LINES ON THE DRAWING, AND THE LINES ON THE DRAWING, AND THE LINES WILL LOOP THEMSELVES LINES WILL LOOP THEMSELVES AROUND THE SURFACE OF THE AROUND THE SURFACE OF THE CYLINDER.

CYLINDER.

WHEREAS IF YOU WANT A STRAIGHT WHEREAS IF YOU WANT A STRAIGHT LINE, YOU'VE GOT TO CALCULATE LINE, YOU'VE GOT TO CALCULATE A NOT OBVIOUS CURVE ON THE A NOT OBVIOUS CURVE ON THE SHEET OF PAPER.

SHEET OF PAPER.

[festive folk music] [festive folk music] I'M INTERESTED IN MACHINES THAT TELL YOU WHAT IT IS TO LOOK, TELL YOU WHAT IT IS TO LOOK, THAT MAKE YOU AWARE OF THE THAT MAKE YOU AWARE OF THE PROCESS OF SEEING AND MAKE YOU PROCESS OF SEEING AND MAKE YOU AWARE OF WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU AWARE OF WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU CONSTRUCT THE WORLD BY LOOKING CONSTRUCT THE WORLD BY LOOKING AT IT, BUT MORE, AS LOOKING AND AT IT, BUT MORE, AS LOOKING AND SEEING BEING A METAPHOR, OR SEEING BEING A METAPHOR, OR A BROAD-BASED METAPHOR, FOR HOW A BROAD-BASED METAPHOR, FOR HOW WE GO THROUGH THE WORLD, WE GO THROUGH THE WORLD, HOW WE UNDERSTAND THE WORLD, HOW WE UNDERSTAND THE WORLD, FOR THINKING OR UNDERSTANDING, FOR THINKING OR UNDERSTANDING, WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH A STEREOSCOPIC VIEWER, A STEREOSCOPIC VIEWER, YOU'RE AWARE THAT YOU HAVE TWO YOU'RE AWARE THAT YOU HAVE TWO COMPLETELY FLAT IMAGES AND THAT COMPLETELY FLAT IMAGES AND THAT ALL THAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT ALL THAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT YOUR BRAIN--NOT THE IMAGES, YOUR BRAIN--NOT THE IMAGES, BUT YOUR BRAIN--IS CONSTRUCTING BUT YOUR BRAIN--IS CONSTRUCTING AN ILLUSION OF THREE-DIMENSIONAL AN ILLUSION OF THREE-DIMENSIONAL DEPTH, WHICH IS VERY CLEAR WHEN DEPTH, WHICH IS VERY CLEAR WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STEREOSCOPIC YOU LOOK AT THE STEREOSCOPIC VIEWER BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'RE VIEWER BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU'RE SEEING TWO FLAT IMAGES.

SEEING TWO FLAT IMAGES.

WHAT'S MUCH LESS OBVIOUS IS THAT WHAT'S MUCH LESS OBVIOUS IS THAT THAT'S WE'RE DOING ALL THE TIME THAT'S WE'RE DOING ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD.

IN THE WORLD.

OUR RETINAS ARE EACH RECEIVING OUR RETINAS ARE EACH RECEIVING FLAT IMAGES, AND OUR BRAIN FLAT IMAGES, AND OUR BRAIN COMBINES THE TWO IMAGES FROM OUR COMBINES THE TWO IMAGES FROM OUR RETINAS INTO THIS ILLUSION OF RETINAS INTO THIS ILLUSION OF COHERENT DEPTH, AND BECAUSE WE COHERENT DEPTH, AND BECAUSE WE DO IT SO WELL, WE BELIEVE THAT'S DO IT SO WELL, WE BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT WE SEE.

WHAT WE SEE.

WE BELIEVE WE ARE SIMPLY WE BELIEVE WE ARE SIMPLY SEEING DEPTH RATHER THAN SEEING DEPTH RATHER THAN WE ARE CONSTRUCTING DEPTH OUT OF WE ARE CONSTRUCTING DEPTH OUT OF TWO FLAT IMAGES IN OUR EYES.

TWO FLAT IMAGES IN OUR EYES.

SO THAT, AGAIN, IS BOTH SO THAT, AGAIN, IS BOTH INTERESTING ABOUT THE PHENOMENON INTERESTING ABOUT THE PHENOMENON AND THE WOW FACTOR OF AND THE WOW FACTOR OF STEREOSCOPES ALWAYS, BUT IT'S STEREOSCOPES ALWAYS, BUT IT'S MORE ABOUT THE AGENCY WE HAVE, MORE ABOUT THE AGENCY WE HAVE, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD.

TO MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD.

WHEN THE METROPOLITAN OPERA SAID WHEN THE METROPOLITAN OPERA SAID THEY WANTED ME TO DO AN OPERA, THEY WANTED ME TO DO AN OPERA, WE SPENT A LONG TIME TRYING TO WE SPENT A LONG TIME TRYING TO FIND ONE THAT SEEMED FIND ONE THAT SEEMED APPROPRIATE.

APPROPRIATE.

THEY SUGGESTED SHOSTAKOVICH.

THEY SUGGESTED SHOSTAKOVICH.

I SAID YES TO SHOSTAKOVICH, I SAID YES TO SHOSTAKOVICH, BUT FIRST PRIZE FOR ME WOULD BE BUT FIRST PRIZE FOR ME WOULD BE THE NOSE.

THE NOSE.

I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO DO I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO DO A RUSSIAN PROJECT, WHICH IS TO A RUSSIAN PROJECT, WHICH IS TO SAY, A PROJECT IN WHICH ALL SAY, A PROJECT IN WHICH ALL THOSE DIFFERENT THINGS COULD BE THOSE DIFFERENT THINGS COULD BE LOOKED AT, WHICH IS THE LOOKED AT, WHICH IS THE POLITICAL HISTORY, THE FORMAL POLITICAL HISTORY, THE FORMAL ELEMENTS OF MODERNISM AND ELEMENTS OF MODERNISM AND CONSTRUCTIVISM, AND THE POETRY CONSTRUCTIVISM, AND THE POETRY AND THE WRITING.

AND THE WRITING.

THEY ALL COME INTO THE THEY ALL COME INTO THE THE NOSE; THE NOSE; NOT ALL OF THEM INTO THE OPERA, NOT ALL OF THEM INTO THE OPERA, OF COURSE, BUT CHUNKS OF THEM OF COURSE, BUT CHUNKS OF THEM INTO WHAT WE HAD AT SYDNEY, INTO WHAT WE HAD AT SYDNEY, I AM NOT ME, THE HORSE IS NOT I AM NOT ME, THE HORSE IS NOT AND VARIOUS OTHER AND VARIOUS OTHER ITERATIONS OF THE MATERIAL.

THERE'LL BE HOUSELIGHTS ON AND THERE'LL BE HOUSELIGHTS ON AND ALL THE PROJECTIONS OFF WHEN ALL THE PROJECTIONS OFF WHEN PEOPLE COME IN.

PEOPLE COME IN.

THEN HE'LL SWITCH THE THEN HE'LL SWITCH THE HOUSELIGHTS OFF, AND I THINK HOUSELIGHTS OFF, AND I THINK THE TWO SIDE LIGHTS ONSTAGE THE TWO SIDE LIGHTS ONSTAGE WILL BE ON.

WILL BE ON.

SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE REFERENCES RATHER THAN THINGS REFERENCES RATHER THAN THINGS THAT ARE ACTUALLY HAPPENING THAT ARE ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THEM.

IN THEM.

LIKE, FROM THE DIVE, IT RUNS LIKE, FROM THE DIVE, IT RUNS TO THE END OF THE WHOLE TAPE.

TO THE END OF THE WHOLE TAPE.

>> YES, RIGHT.

>> YES, RIGHT.

>> OKAY.

>> CAN I HAVE YOUR AUTOGRAPH >> CAN I HAVE YOUR AUTOGRAPH FOR MY PROGRAM?

FOR MY PROGRAM?

>> SURE.

>> SURE.

THE SYDNEY PIECE IS A SERIES OF THE SYDNEY PIECE IS A SERIES OF EIGHT PROJECTIONS IN ONE ROOM AT EIGHT PROJECTIONS IN ONE ROOM AT I AM NOT I AM NOT ME, THE HORSE IS NOT MINE, ME, THE HORSE IS NOT MINE, WITH MUSIC BY PHILIP MILLER.

WITH MUSIC BY PHILIP MILLER.

AND YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT AND YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE ARE SIMPLY TORN PIECES OF THESE ARE SIMPLY TORN PIECES OF BLACK PAPER ARRANGED IN BLACK PAPER ARRANGED IN A CERTAIN WAY, AND IS IT ABOUT A CERTAIN WAY, AND IS IT ABOUT A GENEROSITY OF VIEWING TO SEE A GENEROSITY OF VIEWING TO SEE THESE TORN PIECES OF PAPER THESE TORN PIECES OF PAPER MAKE A COHERENT WHOLE, MAKE A COHERENT WHOLE, OR IS IT AN INABILITY OF OR IS IT AN INABILITY OF OURSELVES TO STOP THESE OURSELVES TO STOP THESE FRAGMENTS COMING TOGETHER?

FRAGMENTS COMING TOGETHER?

I AM NOT I AM NOT ME, THE HORSE IS NOT MINE.

ME, THE HORSE IS NOT MINE.

AND THE TITLE COMES FROM AND THE TITLE COMES FROM A RUSSIAN PEASANT SAYING-- A RUSSIAN PEASANT SAYING-- DENYING GUILT.

DENYING GUILT.

IF YOU WERE ACCUSED OF IF YOU WERE ACCUSED OF SOMETHING, YOU'D SIMPLY SAY, SOMETHING, YOU'D SIMPLY SAY, "I AM NOT ME.

"I AM NOT ME.

THE HORSE WAS NOT MINE."

THE HORSE WAS NOT MINE."

OR THAT "I DIDN'T STEAL OR THAT "I DIDN'T STEAL THE HORSE."

THE HORSE."

WHO WROTE THESE NOTES?

WHO WROTE THESE NOTES?

I MEAN, THIS IS-- I MEAN, THIS IS-- NONE OF THIS MAKES SENSE.

NONE OF THIS MAKES SENSE.

WHAT IS OUR PAGE?

WHAT IS OUR PAGE?

THEY'RE SATELLITE PIECES, BUT THEY'RE SATELLITE PIECES, BUT THEY'RE NOT ONLY SATELLITE THEY'RE NOT ONLY SATELLITE PIECES.

PIECES.

IT'S MATERIAL THAT'S BEEN IT'S MATERIAL THAT'S BEEN EXCAVATED WHILE WORKING ON THE EXCAVATED WHILE WORKING ON THE OPERA THAT THEN HAS ITS OPERA THAT THEN HAS ITS OWN PLACE.

OWN PLACE.

SO IT'S EITHER LIKE A KIND OF SO IT'S EITHER LIKE A KIND OF A FOOTNOTE TO THE OPERA OR A FOOTNOTE TO THE OPERA OR AN ESSAY ABOUT THE OPERA.

AN ESSAY ABOUT THE OPERA.

I'M NOT MEANT TO BE DOING I'M NOT MEANT TO BE DOING THIS STUFF.

THIS STUFF.

WHAT AM I DOING ON TOP OF THIS WHAT AM I DOING ON TOP OF THIS LADDER THE WHOLE TIME?

LADDER THE WHOLE TIME?

NONE OF THESE IS ANY GOOD.

NONE OF THESE IS ANY GOOD.

HERE.

HERE.

BRACKETS.

BRACKETS.

PROLONGED LAUGHTER.

PROLONGED LAUGHTER.

UPROAR IN THE ROOM.

UPROAR IN THE ROOM.

[chaotic instrumental music] [chaotic instrumental music] BUT IN SOME WAYS, YOU CAN TURN IT ON ITS HEAD AND SAY THE WHOLE IT ON ITS HEAD AND SAY THE WHOLE OPERA PRODUCTION IS SIMPLY OPERA PRODUCTION IS SIMPLY A PROVOCATION TO ARRIVE AT THIS A PROVOCATION TO ARRIVE AT THIS PIECE BECAUSE IN FACT THE OPERA PIECE BECAUSE IN FACT THE OPERA HAD SEVEN PERFORMANCES.

HAD SEVEN PERFORMANCES.

AFTER THAT, THAT'S IT.

AFTER THAT, THAT'S IT.

WHEREAS THIS ALREADY HAS HAD WHEREAS THIS ALREADY HAS HAD A MUCH LONGER LIFE THAN THE A MUCH LONGER LIFE THAN THE OPERA WILL EVER HAVE.

LET'S TRY IT.

LET'S TRY IT.

>> COMPILATIONS.

>> COMPILATIONS.

>> NO.

THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

>> NO.

THAT'S ALL RIGHT.

JUST WANTED TO USE THIS FOR THE JUST WANTED TO USE THIS FOR THE SOUNDTRACK.

SOUNDTRACK.

[faint chaotic music playing] [faint chaotic music playing] THE FIRST PASSAGE IS JUST THE THE FIRST PASSAGE IS JUST THE HORSE BY ITSELF.

HORSE BY ITSELF.

AND THEN THE HORSE IS GOING TO AND THEN THE HORSE IS GOING TO COME IN AND STAND LIKE A CIRCUS COME IN AND STAND LIKE A CIRCUS HORSE.

HORSE.

AND THEN HE'S GOING TO REAR UP, AND THEN HE'S GOING TO REAR UP, AT WHICH POINT I DISAPPEAR, AT WHICH POINT I DISAPPEAR, AND THE FRONT STEPLADDER AND THE FRONT STEPLADDER DISAPPEARS, AND IT'S JUST MY DISAPPEARS, AND IT'S JUST MY LEGS WITH AN ANIMATED HORSE LEGS WITH AN ANIMATED HORSE ON TOP.

ON TOP.

THE BACK HORSE REARS, THE BACK HORSE REARS, AND THEN I LEAP UP.

AND THEN I LEAP UP.

>> THIS IS COMING ON NOW.

>> THIS IS COMING ON NOW.

>> YEAH, BUT THEY'RE ON >> YEAH, BUT THEY'RE ON TOGETHER, OBVIOUSLY, TOGETHER, OBVIOUSLY, AT THE SAME TIME.

AT THE SAME TIME.

>> THEY COME--THEY FOLLOW >> THEY COME--THEY FOLLOW EACH OTHER ON?

EACH OTHER ON?

>> SEE, THAT'S WHAT I FORGOT >> SEE, THAT'S WHAT I FORGOT ABOUT: THAT DAMN LADDER.

ABOUT: THAT DAMN LADDER.

OH, NO, IT'S ACTUALLY POSSIBLE OH, NO, IT'S ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO MAKE THAT RIGHT.

TO MAKE THAT RIGHT.

WHEN THAT GUY AT THE BACK DOES WHEN THAT GUY AT THE BACK DOES HIS LEAN UP, THEN THE FRONT GUY HIS LEAN UP, THEN THE FRONT GUY DISAPPEARS, AND WE JUST HAVE THE DISAPPEARS, AND WE JUST HAVE THE LADDER BY ITSELF.

LADDER BY ITSELF.

[chaotic circus music] [chaotic circus music] SO HERE, I ADVANCE THE IMAGE SO HERE, I ADVANCE THE IMAGE ONE, TWO FRAMES AND THEN SHIFT ONE, TWO FRAMES AND THEN SHIFT THE HORSE--THE PAPER HORSE-- THE HORSE--THE PAPER HORSE-- ALONG.

AND WHEN I SHOOT IT WITH AND WHEN I SHOOT IT WITH A CAMERA TO RESHOOT WHAT'S A CAMERA TO RESHOOT WHAT'S BEING PROJECTED WITH THE BEING PROJECTED WITH THE ADDITION OF THE EXTRA ELEMENTS, ADDITION OF THE EXTRA ELEMENTS, I'M ALSO SHOOTING TWO FRAMES.

WE'RE ALLOWING A SIMILARITY OF WE'RE ALLOWING A SIMILARITY OF SHAPE AND TONE TO MAKE THE SHAPE AND TONE TO MAKE THE VIEWER NOT UNDERSTAND THAT VIEWER NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WE SUDDENLY CHANGED MEDIUM.

HI.

HI, BOY.

HI.

HI, BOY.

>> IT'S LUNCHTIME.

>> IT'S LUNCHTIME.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU.

WE WILL JUST GET THIS GUY UP, WE WILL JUST GET THIS GUY UP, AND THEN WE'LL STOP.

I THINK ONE DOES THINK WITH I THINK ONE DOES THINK WITH ONE'S HANDS, AND I THINK THAT'S ONE'S HANDS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY A KEYBOARD IS NOT A GOOD WHY A KEYBOARD IS NOT A GOOD PLACE FOR ME TO THINK.

PLACE FOR ME TO THINK.

SO PEOPLE THINK VERY WELL ON SO PEOPLE THINK VERY WELL ON A KEYBOARD.

A KEYBOARD.

I NEED KIND OF THE FIDGETING OF I NEED KIND OF THE FIDGETING OF CHARCOAL, SCISSORS, OR TEARING CHARCOAL, SCISSORS, OR TEARING OF SOMETHING IN MY HANDS, OF SOMETHING IN MY HANDS, AS IF THERE'S A DIFFERENT BRAIN AS IF THERE'S A DIFFERENT BRAIN THAT IS CONTROLLING HOW THAT THAT IS CONTROLLING HOW THAT WORKS.

WORKS.

THERE'S AN UNCERTAINTY OF WHAT THERE'S AN UNCERTAINTY OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AN IMPRECISION, YOU'RE DOING, AN IMPRECISION, SO THAT WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU SO THAT WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT IS NOT TO KNOW LOOK AT IT IS NOT TO KNOW SOMETHING IN ADVANCE WHICH SOMETHING IN ADVANCE WHICH YOU'RE CARRYING OUT BUT RATHER YOU'RE CARRYING OUT BUT RATHER RELY ON RECOGNIZING SOMETHING AS RELY ON RECOGNIZING SOMETHING AS IT APPEARS.

WHAT I CAN DO, BUT ONLY AS WELL WHAT I CAN DO, BUT ONLY AS WELL AS ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD AS ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD CAN DO, IS RECOGNIZE THINGS AS CAN DO, IS RECOGNIZE THINGS AS THEY APPEAR.

THEY APPEAR.

SO IT'S NOT THAT I'M BETTER AT SO IT'S NOT THAT I'M BETTER AT RECOGNIZING EIGHT PIECES OF RECOGNIZING EIGHT PIECES OF PAPER AS A HORSE THAN ANYONE PAPER AS A HORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

ELSE.

WHAT I DO DO IS ALLOW MYSELF THE WHAT I DO DO IS ALLOW MYSELF THE LUXURY OF SAYING, "THIS IS GOING LUXURY OF SAYING, "THIS IS GOING TO BE THE WAY I'M GOING TO SPEND TO BE THE WAY I'M GOING TO SPEND MONTHS AND YEARS OF MY LIFE MONTHS AND YEARS OF MY LIFE IS ARRANGING STUPID PIECES OF IS ARRANGING STUPID PIECES OF PAPER AND THEN SAYING, PAPER AND THEN SAYING, 'AH!

A HORSE,' EVERY DAY, 'AH!

A HORSE,' EVERY DAY, AS IF IT'S SOMETHING FRESH."

AS IF IT'S SOMETHING FRESH."

OKAY, HERE WE TAKE A PAUSE OKAY, HERE WE TAKE A PAUSE FOR LUNCH.

FOR LUNCH.

COME ON, TAMINO.

COME ON, TAMINO.

[whistles] [whistles] HERE, COME ON.

HERE, COME ON.

THE SERIOUSNESS OF PLAY IS THE SERIOUSNESS OF PLAY IS IMPORTANT IN THE WORK I DO, IMPORTANT IN THE WORK I DO, AND IT'S IMPORTANT AS A STRATEGY AND IT'S IMPORTANT AS A STRATEGY FOR ALLOWING IMAGES AND IDEAS TO FOR ALLOWING IMAGES AND IDEAS TO EMERGE.

EMERGE.

IT'S ABOUT SAYING IN THE IT'S ABOUT SAYING IN THE LOOSENESS OF TRYING DIFFERENT LOOSENESS OF TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS.

THINGS.

AND IT IS--YOU KNOW, IT'S AND IT IS--YOU KNOW, IT'S TERRIBLE THAT ONE ASSOCIATES TERRIBLE THAT ONE ASSOCIATES THAT LOOSENESS OR OPEN-ENDEDNESS THAT LOOSENESS OR OPEN-ENDEDNESS WITH CHILDHOOD, THAT AFTER THAT, WITH CHILDHOOD, THAT AFTER THAT, THAT POSSIBILITY OF EXPLORING THAT POSSIBILITY OF EXPLORING SOMETHING NOT KNOWING QUITE SOMETHING NOT KNOWING QUITE WHERE IT WILL LEAD TO, WHERE IT WILL LEAD TO, UNDERSTANDING ONE CAN DO THINGS UNDERSTANDING ONE CAN DO THINGS LIGHTLY AND QUICKLY, LIGHTLY AND QUICKLY, ISN'T EXACTLY FROWNED UPON, ISN'T EXACTLY FROWNED UPON, BUT IT'S NOT THE NORM.

ALL THE INTERESTING IDEAS I'VE ALL THE INTERESTING IDEAS I'VE EVER HAD, OR INTERESTING WORK EVER HAD, OR INTERESTING WORK I'VE DONE, HAS ALWAYS BEEN I'VE DONE, HAS ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST IDEAS I'VE HAD.

AGAINST IDEAS I'VE HAD.

IT'S KIND OF BEEN IN BETWEEN THE IT'S KIND OF BEEN IN BETWEEN THE THINGS I THOUGHT I WAS DOING THINGS I THOUGHT I WAS DOING THAT THE REAL WORK HAS HAPPENED.

[soft electronic music] [soft electronic music] >> [laughs] >> [laughs] YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE-- YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE-- I OPEN UP THIS BOX; I OPEN UP THIS BOX; IT'S LIKE OPENING UP A CAN IT'S LIKE OPENING UP A CAN OF WORMS.

OF WORMS.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IT'S JUST LIKE THE IT'S JUST LIKE THE MOST AMAZING--IT WAS THE MOST MOST AMAZING--IT WAS THE MOST AMAZING PROJECT.

AMAZING PROJECT.

THERE WERE A GROUP OF THERE WERE A GROUP OF PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I KNEW THAT PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I KNEW THAT I ABSOLUTELY HAD TO USE.

I ABSOLUTELY HAD TO USE.

I HAD BEEN THINKING ABOUT THEM I HAD BEEN THINKING ABOUT THEM FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.

FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.

I HAD LECTURED ON THEM IN I HAD LECTURED ON THEM IN ANY NUMBER OF CONTEXTS IN MY ANY NUMBER OF CONTEXTS IN MY CLASSROOMS FOR A REALLY LONG CLASSROOMS FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.

TIME.

AND THERE WERE A GROUP OF THEM AND THERE WERE A GROUP OF THEM THAT CAME OUT OF THE HARVARD THAT CAME OUT OF THE HARVARD ARCHIVES.

ARCHIVES.

THIS WAS ONE OF THEM, A VERY THIS WAS ONE OF THEM, A VERY EARLY DAGUERREOTYPE THAT HAD EARLY DAGUERREOTYPE THAT HAD BEEN DONE IN NORTH CAROLINA, BEEN DONE IN NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA, OF A FAMILY SOUTH CAROLINA, OF A FAMILY OF SLAVES.

OF SLAVES.

BUT IT WAS THE KIND OF PROJECT BUT IT WAS THE KIND OF PROJECT THAT ALLOWED ME TO THINK AGAIN THAT ALLOWED ME TO THINK AGAIN ABOUT THE HISTORY OF BLACK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF BLACK SUBJECTS IN PHOTOGRAPHY AS WELL, SUBJECTS IN PHOTOGRAPHY AS WELL, HOW THE BLACK BODY HAD BEEN HOW THE BLACK BODY HAD BEEN USED PHOTOGRAPHICALLY.

USED PHOTOGRAPHICALLY.

THE FINAL PIECES ARE WITH TEXTS, THE FINAL PIECES ARE WITH TEXTS, AND THE TEXT IS ETCHED INTO AND THE TEXT IS ETCHED INTO GLASS.

GLASS.

THEY LOOK VERY DIFFERENT ONCE THEY LOOK VERY DIFFERENT ONCE THEY'RE BEHIND GLASS BECAUSE THE THEY'RE BEHIND GLASS BECAUSE THE GLASS AND THE TEXT BECOMES GLASS AND THE TEXT BECOMES REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO HOW REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO HOW THE AUDIENCE IS BEING ASKED TO THE AUDIENCE IS BEING ASKED TO ENGAGE WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

ENGAGE WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

AND SO THERE WERE THESE AND SO THERE WERE THESE BEGINNING IMAGES THAT SEEMED BEGINNING IMAGES THAT SEEMED TO ME TO REALLY CRYSTALLIZE AND TO ME TO REALLY CRYSTALLIZE AND COMPRESS IN FOUR IMAGES COMPRESS IN FOUR IMAGES THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE HISTORY OF PHOTOGRAPHY.

IN THE HISTORY OF PHOTOGRAPHY.

THERE ARE 30 PHOTOGRAPHS WITHIN THERE ARE 30 PHOTOGRAPHS WITHIN THE SERIES.

THE SERIES.

ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS FOR ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS FOR THE GETTY SERIES ARE-- THE GETTY SERIES ARE-- ARE APPROPRIATED IMAGES FROM ARE APPROPRIATED IMAGES FROM OTHER HISTORICAL SOURCES.

OTHER HISTORICAL SOURCES.

HARVARD THREATENED TO SUE ME FOR HARVARD THREATENED TO SUE ME FOR THE USE OF THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPHS THE USE OF THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I SHOWED YOU.

THAT I SHOWED YOU.

SO I THOUGHT, HARVARD IS GOING SO I THOUGHT, HARVARD IS GOING TO SUE ME FOR USING THESE IMAGES TO SUE ME FOR USING THESE IMAGES OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THEIR OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THEIR COLLECTION, THE RICHEST COLLECTION, THE RICHEST UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD.

UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD.

I THINK THAT I DON'T HAVE REALLY I THINK THAT I DON'T HAVE REALLY A LEGAL CASE, BUT MAYBE I HAVE A LEGAL CASE, BUT MAYBE I HAVE A MORAL CASE THAT COULD BE MADE A MORAL CASE THAT COULD BE MADE THAT MIGHT BE REALLY USEFUL TO THAT MIGHT BE REALLY USEFUL TO CARRY OUT IN PUBLIC.

CARRY OUT IN PUBLIC.

AND SO AFTER WORRYING ABOUT IT AND SO AFTER WORRYING ABOUT IT AND THINKING ABOUT IT, I CALLED AND THINKING ABOUT IT, I CALLED THEM UP, AND I SAID, "I THINK THEM UP, AND I SAID, "I THINK ACTUALLY YOUR SUING ME WOULD BE ACTUALLY YOUR SUING ME WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD THING.

A REALLY GOOD THING.

YOU SHOULD, AND WE SHOULD HAVE YOU SHOULD, AND WE SHOULD HAVE THIS CONVERSATION IN COURT.

THIS CONVERSATION IN COURT.

I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY INSTRUCTIVE FOR ANY NUMBER OF INSTRUCTIVE FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS AND CERTAINLY FOR REASONS AND CERTAINLY FOR ARTISTS THAT ARE REALLY ENGAGED ARTISTS THAT ARE REALLY ENGAGED IN THE ACT OF APPROPRIATION IN THE ACT OF APPROPRIATION WHO THINK THAT THERE IS A LARGER WHO THINK THAT THERE IS A LARGER STORY TO TELL."

STORY TO TELL."

HARVARD THEN FINALLY THOUGHT, HARVARD THEN FINALLY THOUGHT, "NO, I GUESS WE WON'T SUE HER."

"NO, I GUESS WE WON'T SUE HER."

AND THEN THEY ASKED ME TO, AND THEN THEY ASKED ME TO, EVERY TIME A SELL WAS MADE, EVERY TIME A SELL WAS MADE, THAT I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THEM THAT I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THEM FOR THE USE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

FOR THE USE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

AND THEN THEY BOUGHT THE AND THEN THEY BOUGHT THE PHOTOGRAPHS FOR THEIR PHOTOGRAPHS FOR THEIR COLLECTION.

COLLECTION.

[laughing] SO IT WAS LIKE, "OKAY, SO IT WAS LIKE, "OKAY, WELL, YOU BOUGHT 'EM.

WELL, YOU BOUGHT 'EM.

DO I HAVE TO PAY YOU?

DO I HAVE TO PAY YOU?

DO I HAVE TO PAY YOU TOO?"

DO I HAVE TO PAY YOU TOO?"

I MEAN--I MEAN, I'M A LITTLE I MEAN--I MEAN, I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED.

CONFUSED.

[laughs] I COME FROM THIS BIG, WONDERFUL, I COME FROM THIS BIG, WONDERFUL, CRAZY FAMILY OF, I DON'T KNOW, CRAZY FAMILY OF, I DON'T KNOW, 300 OR SO OF US.

300 OR SO OF US.

SO I STARTED THINKING ABOUT THIS SO I STARTED THINKING ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP OF ME TO MY FAMILY RELATIONSHIP OF ME TO MY FAMILY AND HOW TO SORT OF TEASE THAT AND HOW TO SORT OF TEASE THAT OUT.

OUT.

IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME BECAUSE IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME BECAUSE I REALLY NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND I REALLY NEEDED TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT THE NATURE OF MY SOMETHING ABOUT THE NATURE OF MY OWN BEING AND MY OWN VOICE AND OWN BEING AND MY OWN VOICE AND REALLY WHERE I COME FROM.

REALLY WHERE I COME FROM.

MY FATHER WAS A REALLY GREAT, MY FATHER WAS A REALLY GREAT, GREAT, GREAT STORYTELLER, GREAT, GREAT STORYTELLER, AND, YOU KNOW, NARRATIVE AND AND, YOU KNOW, NARRATIVE AND STORYTELLING WAS IN THE BLOOD.

STORYTELLING WAS IN THE BLOOD.

I JUST CAME FROM A FAMILY I JUST CAME FROM A FAMILY REUNION.

REUNION.

MY AUNT NELLIE, WHO'S SORT OF MY AUNT NELLIE, WHO'S SORT OF THE CHRONICLER OF OUR FAMILY, THE CHRONICLER OF OUR FAMILY, PUT TOGETHER THIS REALLY PUT TOGETHER THIS REALLY BEAUTIFUL SCRAPBOOK.

BEAUTIFUL SCRAPBOOK.

AND I LOVE THIS PHOTOGRAPH.

AND I LOVE THIS PHOTOGRAPH.

I GREW UP WITH THIS PICTURE.

I GREW UP WITH THIS PICTURE.

THIS IS SORT OF LIKE THE ANCHOR, THIS IS SORT OF LIKE THE ANCHOR, THE BEDROCK OF MY FAMILY.

THE BEDROCK OF MY FAMILY.

THIS IS MY BEAUTIFUL MOTHER AND THIS IS MY BEAUTIFUL MOTHER AND ALL OF HER SISTERS, AND I'M ALL OF HER SISTERS, AND I'M CRAZY ABOUT THEM ALL.

THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF MY GRANDFATHER.

MY GRANDFATHER.

MY GRANDFATHER WAS JEWISH AND MY GRANDFATHER WAS JEWISH AND NATIVE AMERICAN, AND HE MARRIED NATIVE AMERICAN, AND HE MARRIED MY GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS THIS-- MY GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS THIS-- YOU KNOW, THIS BLACK WOMAN, AND YOU KNOW, THIS BLACK WOMAN, AND THEY HAD 11 CHILDREN TOGETHER.

THEY HAD 11 CHILDREN TOGETHER.

PAPA WAS THIS SORT OF AMAZING PAPA WAS THIS SORT OF AMAZING GUY, WHO, BECAUSE HE BASICALLY GUY, WHO, BECAUSE HE BASICALLY PASSED FOR WHITE, WAS ABLE TO PASSED FOR WHITE, WAS ABLE TO EMPLOY HIS ENTIRE FAMILY IN EMPLOY HIS ENTIRE FAMILY IN PORTLAND, OREGON.

PORTLAND, OREGON.

AND THERE WERE TIMES AND THERE WERE TIMES WHEN HE WOULD TAKE OSIE, WHEN HE WOULD TAKE OSIE, MY GRANDMOTHER, WITH HIM FOR MY GRANDMOTHER, WITH HIM FOR A JOB, AND THEY WOULD FIRE HIM A JOB, AND THEY WOULD FIRE HIM BECAUSE THEY REALIZED THAT BECAUSE THEY REALIZED THAT HE WAS MARRIED TO A BLACK WOMAN.

HE WAS MARRIED TO A BLACK WOMAN.

OR SOMETIMES WHEN MY GRANDFATHER OR SOMETIMES WHEN MY GRANDFATHER HAD ALL OF THE KIDS IN THE CAR, HAD ALL OF THE KIDS IN THE CAR, WHITE PEOPLE WOULD PASS BY AND WHITE PEOPLE WOULD PASS BY AND SAY, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH SAY, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH ALL THEM NIGGERS IN YOUR CAR?"

ALL THEM NIGGERS IN YOUR CAR?"

THEY WERE JUST SORT OF THEY WERE JUST SORT OF EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE, EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE, AND WHAT THEY PUT IN MOTION AND WHAT THEY PUT IN MOTION IS STILL THERE.

IS STILL THERE.

AND MY MOTHER AND HER SISTERS AND MY MOTHER AND HER SISTERS HAVE CARRIED ON THAT AMAZING HAVE CARRIED ON THAT AMAZING TRADITION.

TRADITION.

I MOVED AWAY FROM HOME WHEN I MOVED AWAY FROM HOME WHEN I WAS 16.

I WAS 16.

I WENT TO MY FATHER AND SAID, I WENT TO MY FATHER AND SAID, "DAD, I THINK I'M READY TO MOVE "DAD, I THINK I'M READY TO MOVE OUT ON MY OWN."

OUT ON MY OWN."

HE SAID, "YOU THINK THAT YOU HE SAID, "YOU THINK THAT YOU COULD, LIKE, MOVE OUT AND PAY COULD, LIKE, MOVE OUT AND PAY YOUR RENT AND BUY YOUR FOOD AND YOUR RENT AND BUY YOUR FOOD AND ALL THAT BY YOURSELF AND NOT ALL THAT BY YOURSELF AND NOT COME BACK HOME, LIKE, EVERY COME BACK HOME, LIKE, EVERY OTHER DAY FOR FOOD OR RENT OR OTHER DAY FOR FOOD OR RENT OR A SAFE HAVEN?"

A SAFE HAVEN?"

AND I SAID, "YEAH, I THINK I CAN AND I SAID, "YEAH, I THINK I CAN DO THAT."

DO THAT."

AND HE SAID, "WELL, IF YOU AND HE SAID, "WELL, IF YOU THINK YOU CAN DO THAT, THINK YOU CAN DO THAT, THEN GO DO THAT.

THEN GO DO THAT.

IF YOU THINK THAT YOU NEED TO IF YOU THINK THAT YOU NEED TO COME BACK HOME AFTER YOU'VE COME BACK HOME AFTER YOU'VE TRIED IT, YOU ARE ALWAYS, TRIED IT, YOU ARE ALWAYS, OF COURSE, WELCOME TO COME BACK OF COURSE, WELCOME TO COME BACK HOME, BUT IF YOU THINK YOU CAN HOME, BUT IF YOU THINK YOU CAN TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF, THEN GO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF, THEN GO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF."

TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF."

AND I LEFT HOME, AND I HAVEN'T AND I LEFT HOME, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN BACK SINCE.

BEEN BACK SINCE.

AND SO I WENT TO SAN FRANCISCO AND SO I WENT TO SAN FRANCISCO WITH MY GIRLFRIEND.

WITH MY GIRLFRIEND.

I HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN DANCE I HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN DANCE AND THEATER TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

AND THEATER TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

I MEAN, I JUST KNEW HOW TO DANCE I MEAN, I JUST KNEW HOW TO DANCE REALLY WELL.

REALLY WELL.

AND I STARTED DANCING WITH THE AND I STARTED DANCING WITH THE FAMOUS AND EXTRAORDINARY ANN FAMOUS AND EXTRAORDINARY ANN HALPRIN.

HALPRIN.

ANN WAS ALREADY REALLY ANN WAS ALREADY REALLY INTERESTED IN IDEAS ABOUT PEACE INTERESTED IN IDEAS ABOUT PEACE AND USING DANCE AS A WAY AND USING DANCE AS A WAY TO BRIDGE DIFFERENT CULTURES TO BRIDGE DIFFERENT CULTURES TOGETHER.

TOGETHER.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ONE COULD I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ONE COULD WITH DANCE.

WITH DANCE.

I KNEW THAT IT WAS REALLY THE I KNEW THAT IT WAS REALLY THE VISUAL ARTS THAT SOMEHOW WOULD VISUAL ARTS THAT SOMEHOW WOULD BE MORE MY CALLING.

BE MORE MY CALLING.

AND THEN I HAD A BOYFRIEND WHO AND THEN I HAD A BOYFRIEND WHO WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER, AND HE WOULD WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER, AND HE WOULD FILM ALL OF OUR PARTIES AND FILM ALL OF OUR PARTIES AND HAPPENINGS AND RALLIES AND HAPPENINGS AND RALLIES AND DEMONSTRATIONS.

DEMONSTRATIONS.

WE WERE ALL RADICALS, LIVING IN WE WERE ALL RADICALS, LIVING IN SAN FRANCISCO.

SAN FRANCISCO.

AND HE INTRODUCED ME TO AND HE INTRODUCED ME TO PHOTOGRAPHY.

PHOTOGRAPHY.

I LOVE ATLANTA.

I LOVE ATLANTA.

>> I DO TOO.

>> I DO TOO.

I MISS IT SO MUCH.

I MISS IT SO MUCH.

I MISS IT SO MUCH.

>> I WAS DAYDREAMING ABOUT THE >> I WAS DAYDREAMING ABOUT THE BIRMINGHAM RIOTS IN THE 1960s.

BIRMINGHAM RIOTS IN THE 1960s.

AND THE IMAGE STARTED MOVING.

AND THE IMAGE STARTED MOVING.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT ONE I WAS THINKING ABOUT ONE PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH MADE BY PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH MADE BY CHARLES MOORE, A PHOTOGRAPH THAT CHARLES MOORE, A PHOTOGRAPH THAT I LOVE, AND CHARLES MOORE DIDN'T I LOVE, AND CHARLES MOORE DIDN'T REALLY WANT ME TO USE REALLY WANT ME TO USE HIS PHOTOGRAPH.

HIS PHOTOGRAPH.

AND SO I THOUGHT, "OKAY, THEN AND SO I THOUGHT, "OKAY, THEN I'M GONNA BRING THAT PHOTOGRAPH I'M GONNA BRING THAT PHOTOGRAPH TO LIFE.

TO LIFE.

I'LL CONSTRUCT THAT MOMENT."

I'LL CONSTRUCT THAT MOMENT."

AND SO I WENT TO BIRMINGHAM, AND SO I WENT TO BIRMINGHAM, AND I PULLED OUT SOME STUDENTS, AND I PULLED OUT SOME STUDENTS, AND WE DID A WHOLE SERIES OF AND WE DID A WHOLE SERIES OF ACTIONS, AND OUT OF THAT CAME ACTIONS, AND OUT OF THAT CAME THIS IDEA TO DO AN ENTIRE SERIES THIS IDEA TO DO AN ENTIRE SERIES OF RE-CREATIONS AROUND THE IDEA OF RE-CREATIONS AROUND THE IDEA OF 1968.

OF 1968.

I REALIZED THAT WE WERE AT THIS I REALIZED THAT WE WERE AT THIS INCREDIBLE MOMENT, THAT 40 YEARS INCREDIBLE MOMENT, THAT 40 YEARS HAD ELAPSED, THAT MARTIN LUTHER HAD ELAPSED, THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING HAD DIED 40 YEARS AGO, KING HAD DIED 40 YEARS AGO, AND THAT IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT AND THAT IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT SOME THINGS THAT TO LOOK AT SOME THINGS THAT HAPPENED JUST BEFORE THAT AND HAPPENED JUST BEFORE THAT AND JUST AFTER THAT SO THAT YOU JUST AFTER THAT SO THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN.

ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF MALCOLM.

ASSASSINATION OF MALCOLM.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF MEDGAR EVERS, ASSASSINATION OF MEDGAR EVERS, OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY, OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JOHN F. KENNEDY, JOHN F. KENNEDY, THIS IDEA OF HOW THEN WE ARRIVED THIS IDEA OF HOW THEN WE ARRIVED AT THIS INCREDIBLE MOMENT.

AT THIS INCREDIBLE MOMENT.

AND THEN I REALIZED THAT BARACK AND THEN I REALIZED THAT BARACK OBAMA, OF COURSE, WAS RUNNING OBAMA, OF COURSE, WAS RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES.

STATES.

THIS INCREDIBLE, TUMULTUOUS, THIS INCREDIBLE, TUMULTUOUS, BRUTAL HISTORY IS ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL HISTORY IS ABSOLUTELY WHAT MAKES HIM POSSIBLE, WHAT MAKES HIM POSSIBLE, THAT HE COULD NOT BE IN THAT THAT HE COULD NOT BE IN THAT POSITION WITHOUT THE DEATH OF POSITION WITHOUT THE DEATH OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE, ALL THOSE PEOPLE, AND SO THAT HE IS LITERALLY AND SO THAT HE IS LITERALLY STANDING ON THE ASHES AND THE STANDING ON THE ASHES AND THE SPIRIT OF ALL THOSE THINGS THAT SPIRIT OF ALL THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE COME BEFORE.

HAVE COME BEFORE.

AND I JUST THOUGHT IF I DIDN'T AND I JUST THOUGHT IF I DIDN'T LOOK AT THOSE THINGS NOW, LOOK AT THOSE THINGS NOW, IF I DIDN'T LOOK AT ALL OF THAT IF I DIDN'T LOOK AT ALL OF THAT KIND OF TRAUMA AND THE MOURNING, KIND OF TRAUMA AND THE MOURNING, YOU KNOW, AND THE SADNESS OF THE YOU KNOW, AND THE SADNESS OF THE HISTORY OF THE LAST 40 YEARS, HISTORY OF THE LAST 40 YEARS, THEN, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WASN'T THEN, YOU KNOW, I REALLY WASN'T WORTH MY SALT.

WORTH MY SALT.

I DON'T KNOW IF THIS WORK I DON'T KNOW IF THIS WORK WILL BE IMPORTANT, WILL BE IMPORTANT, BUT I KNOW THAT IT'S IMPORTANT BUT I KNOW THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME, THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME, THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO LOOK AT THIS HISTORY, FOR ME TO LOOK AT THIS HISTORY, TO REALLY THINK ABOUT WHERE TO REALLY THINK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE NOW, CONTEMPORARILY.

WE ARE NOW, CONTEMPORARILY.

AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO CONSIDER DEEPLY IN MY HEART HOW CONSIDER DEEPLY IN MY HEART HOW WE HAD ARRIVED AT THIS MOMENT.

WE HAD ARRIVED AT THIS MOMENT.

AND SO THEN THE IDEA THAT AND SO THEN THE IDEA THAT I WOULD ASK A NUMBER OF STUDENTS I WOULD ASK A NUMBER OF STUDENTS TO ASSUME THE ROLES FOR TO ASSUME THE ROLES FOR THEMSELVES AND THEREBY COME TO THEMSELVES AND THEREBY COME TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT HISTORY--ALL THOSE THINGS WERE HISTORY--ALL THOSE THINGS WERE REALLY VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME REALLY VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO MAKE.

TO MAKE.

>> THIS IS THE ASSASSINATION OF >> THIS IS THE ASSASSINATION OF ROBERT KENNEDY.

ROBERT KENNEDY.

I THINK IT'S, I BELIEVE, I THINK IT'S, I BELIEVE, LIKE 1968.

LIKE 1968.

I ACTED IN A PART OF BEING I ACTED IN A PART OF BEING A BUSBOY, AND I THINK HIS NAME A BUSBOY, AND I THINK HIS NAME IS JUAN ROMERO.

IS JUAN ROMERO.

AT THAT TIME, WHEN HE GOT SHOT, AT THAT TIME, WHEN HE GOT SHOT, THE BUSBOY, WHO MET HIM THE BUSBOY, WHO MET HIM PREVIOUSLY, HE RAN UP TO HIM AND PREVIOUSLY, HE RAN UP TO HIM AND ASKED IF HE WAS OKAY AND GAVE ASKED IF HE WAS OKAY AND GAVE HIM A ROSARY, SO THAT WAS THE HIM A ROSARY, SO THAT WAS THE PART THAT I REENACTED.

PART THAT I REENACTED.

AS AN IMMIGRANT DAUGHTER, AS AN IMMIGRANT DAUGHTER, AS SOMEBODY WHO NEVER AS SOMEBODY WHO NEVER EXPERIENCED IT BEFORE-- EXPERIENCED IT BEFORE-- MY PARENTS DON'T KNOW REALLY MY PARENTS DON'T KNOW REALLY MUCH ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING, MUCH ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING, AND SO FOR ME TO JUST COME INTO AND SO FOR ME TO JUST COME INTO THAT PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT THAT PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED, I THINK THAT EXACTLY HAPPENED, I THINK THAT WAS THE HARDEST.

WAS THE HARDEST.

>> THIS IS KENT STATE, AND I'M >> THIS IS KENT STATE, AND I'M THE GIRL IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.

THE GIRL IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.

IT WAS AN EXTREMELY EMOTIONAL IT WAS AN EXTREMELY EMOTIONAL SITUATION.

SITUATION.

CARRIE HAS THIS ABILITY TO EVOKE CARRIE HAS THIS ABILITY TO EVOKE EMOTION IN PEOPLE, JUST FROM HER EMOTION IN PEOPLE, JUST FROM HER VOICE, AND IT WAS SO SOOTHING.

VOICE, AND IT WAS SO SOOTHING.

BUT WHEN I GOT UP THERE, BUT WHEN I GOT UP THERE, AT FIRST I WAS REALLY NERVOUS, AT FIRST I WAS REALLY NERVOUS, AND I WASN'T SURE HOW I SHOULD AND I WASN'T SURE HOW I SHOULD BECOME SAD AND BECOME IN THAT BECOME SAD AND BECOME IN THAT MOMENT.

MOMENT.

AND THEN ONCE SHE STARTED AND THEN ONCE SHE STARTED TALKING TO ME, JUST ALL THESE TALKING TO ME, JUST ALL THESE EMOTIONS FLED, AND I-- EMOTIONS FLED, AND I-- AND I CRIED REALLY HARD.

AND I CRIED REALLY HARD.

>> VERONICA, THE ONE WITH THE >> VERONICA, THE ONE WITH THE KENT STATE, I REMEMBER THAT.

KENT STATE, I REMEMBER THAT.

>> OH, DO YOU?

>> OH, DO YOU?

>> YOU KNOW--YEAH, I REMEMBER >> YOU KNOW--YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT.

THAT.

I REMEMBER THAT ACTUAL I REMEMBER THAT ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPH.

PHOTOGRAPH.

I MEAN, I REMEMBER WATCHING IT I MEAN, I REMEMBER WATCHING IT ON TELEVISION, YOU KNOW.

ON TELEVISION, YOU KNOW.

>> YEAH, SOME OF THESE ARE >> YEAH, SOME OF THESE ARE JUST--I MEAN, JUST-- JUST--I MEAN, JUST-- >> SO THESE THINGS HAVE ANOTHER >> SO THESE THINGS HAVE ANOTHER KIND OF PITCH TO IT, YOU KNOW?

KIND OF PITCH TO IT, YOU KNOW?

>> WHAT CAME OUT OF THESE >> WHAT CAME OUT OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, PHOTOGRAPHS, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT I REALLY, REALLY LOVE, WHAT I REALLY, REALLY LOVE, IS INDEED ANOTHER WAY OF IS INDEED ANOTHER WAY OF WORKING, THIS IDEA OF WORKING, THIS IDEA OF CONSTRUCTING HISTORY.

CONSTRUCTING HISTORY.

NOT ONLY DID I WANT THE STUDENTS NOT ONLY DID I WANT THE STUDENTS TO BE DOING ALL THE RESEARCH AND TO BE DOING ALL THE RESEARCH AND STUDYING THE REENACTMENT: STUDYING THE REENACTMENT: WHEN DID THE STUDENTS AT KENT WHEN DID THE STUDENTS AT KENT STATE DIE?

STATE DIE?

WHO WAS THERE?

WHO WAS THERE?

WHAT WAS HER NAME?

WHAT WAS HER NAME?

WHO WERE THE OTHER STUDENTS WHO WERE THE OTHER STUDENTS THAT WERE KILLED?

THAT WERE KILLED?

THEY HAD TO DO ALL THAT WORK, THEY HAD TO DO ALL THAT WORK, BUT THEN I THOUGHT, LET'S BUT THEN I THOUGHT, LET'S CONSTRUCT THEM IN A VERY SORT OF CONSTRUCT THEM IN A VERY SORT OF HIGH, ARTIFICIAL WAY, AND LET'S HIGH, ARTIFICIAL WAY, AND LET'S PUT EVERYBODY ON A PODIUM, PUT EVERYBODY ON A PODIUM, LET'S PUT EVERYTHING IN THERE, LET'S PUT EVERYTHING IN THERE, AND THEN LET'S SHOW ALL AND THEN LET'S SHOW ALL THE TRACKS.

THE TRACKS.

LET'S SHOW ALL THE LIGHTS.

LET'S SHOW ALL THE LIGHTS.

LET'S JUST SHOW EVERYTHING.

LET'S JUST SHOW EVERYTHING.

LET'S JUST SORT OF SHOW THAT LET'S JUST SORT OF SHOW THAT ALL OF THE STUFF IS BEING ALL OF THE STUFF IS BEING CONSTRUCTED.

IN THIS CONSTRUCTED PLACE, IN THIS CONSTRUCTED PLACE, OUR CLASSROOM.

OUR CLASSROOM.

WE REVISIT THE PAST.

WE REVISIT THE PAST.

THE STUDENTS EXAMINE THE FACTS THE STUDENTS EXAMINE THE FACTS AND WILL PARTICIPATE IN THE AND WILL PARTICIPATE IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF HISTORY, CONSTRUCTION OF HISTORY, A HISTORY THAT HAS BEEN TOLD TO A HISTORY THAT HAS BEEN TOLD TO THEM BY OTHERS.

THEM BY OTHERS.

BUT NOW, WITH THEIR OWN BODIES, BUT NOW, WITH THEIR OWN BODIES, THEY ENGAGE THEIR OWN DARK THEY ENGAGE THEIR OWN DARK TERRAIN, THEIR OWN WINTER.

TERRAIN, THEIR OWN WINTER.

THE VIDEO THAT GOES ALONG WITH THE VIDEO THAT GOES ALONG WITH THESE PHOTOGRAPHS BEGINS AND THESE PHOTOGRAPHS BEGINS AND ENDS WITH HILLARY CLINTON AND ENDS WITH HILLARY CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA.

BARACK OBAMA.

SO THEN I THOUGHT, "OH...

SO THEN I THOUGHT, "OH... OH, OH, OH.

OH, OH, OH.

WELL--WELL, THAT'S THE OTHER-- WELL--WELL, THAT'S THE OTHER-- THAT'S PART TWO, ISN'T IT?

THAT'S PART TWO, ISN'T IT?

THAT'S PART TWO."

THAT'S PART TWO."

SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING TODAY.

DOING TODAY.

OKAY, LADIES, LET'S GO.

OKAY, LADIES, LET'S GO.

VERY MUCH IN SORT OF A SIMILAR VERY MUCH IN SORT OF A SIMILAR STYLE, JOHN MCCAIN, BARACK STYLE, JOHN MCCAIN, BARACK OBAMA, SARAH PALIN AS OBAMA, SARAH PALIN AS A BEAUTY QUEEN.

A BEAUTY QUEEN.

SO YOU ARE MISS ALASKA SO YOU ARE MISS ALASKA I'VE GOT ALL THESE LITTLE I'VE GOT ALL THESE LITTLE BOMBSHELLS COMING TO SORT OF BOMBSHELLS COMING TO SORT OF DRESS UP IN HIGH HEELS AND DRESS UP IN HIGH HEELS AND FISHNETS, AND THEY'LL ALL WALK FISHNETS, AND THEY'LL ALL WALK AROUND.

AROUND.

AND NOW I THINK THAT OBAMA AND NOW I THINK THAT OBAMA THE PRESIDENT OF THE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

UNITED STATES.

FOR ME, IT GIVES THE WORK JUST FOR ME, IT GIVES THE WORK JUST THAT MUCH MORE CREDIBILITY, THAT MUCH MORE CREDIBILITY, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT IT HAS RIGHT, YOU KNOW, THAT IT HAS ACTUALLY A SUCCESS AT THE END ACTUALLY A SUCCESS AT THE END OF IT.

OF IT.

EACH OF YOU IN TURN, YOU'RE EACH OF YOU IN TURN, YOU'RE GOING TO, LIKE, COME WALKING GOING TO, LIKE, COME WALKING TOWARDS THE CAMERA.

TOWARDS THE CAMERA.

[girls laugh] [girls laugh] OKAY?

OKAY?

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO DO.

WE'RE GOING TO DO.

SO WE HAVE TO SET FOR THAT.

SO WE HAVE TO SET FOR THAT.

YOU'RE GOING TO START WALKING YOU'RE GOING TO START WALKING IN THIS DIRECTION.

IN THIS DIRECTION.

WE MAY HAVE TO-- WE MAY HAVE TO-- THE OTHER DAY, I CAME HOME FROM THE OTHER DAY, I CAME HOME FROM CHICAGO, AND I IMMEDIATELY CHICAGO, AND I IMMEDIATELY PLUGGED IN MY TAPE RECORDER, PLUGGED IN MY TAPE RECORDER, AND I MADE A SERIES OF PHONE AND I MADE A SERIES OF PHONE CALLS TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, CALLS TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE, THAT ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE, THAT I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH OVER I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH OVER THE LAST MANY, MANY YEARS, THE LAST MANY, MANY YEARS, TO ASK THEM ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TO ASK THEM ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE THINKING AT THAT MOMENT THAT THINKING AT THAT MOMENT THAT IT SEEMED THAT MAYBE BARACK WAS IT SEEMED THAT MAYBE BARACK WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE PRESIDENT.

ACTUALLY GOING TO BE PRESIDENT.

[girls laughing] [girls laughing] I SPOKE TO PEOPLE WHO, I SPOKE TO PEOPLE WHO, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, SAID, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, SAID, "MY COUNTRY, MY COUNTRY, "MY COUNTRY, MY COUNTRY, MY COUNTRY."

MY COUNTRY."

TIME... TIME... BECAUSE I THINK, REALLY, IT'S BECAUSE I THINK, REALLY, IT'S SORT OF, LIKE, REALLY CLAIMING SORT OF, LIKE, REALLY CLAIMING YOURSELF, AND IT'S A CERTAIN YOURSELF, AND IT'S A CERTAIN CONFIDENCE.

CONFIDENCE.

AND YOU'RE ALL INVOLVED IN AND YOU'RE ALL INVOLVED IN THEATER, SO YOU'RE ALL GOING TO THEATER, SO YOU'RE ALL GOING TO BE WORKING IN FRONT OF BE WORKING IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE.

OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK IT'S EVEN BIGGER.

BUT I THINK IT'S EVEN BIGGER.

I THINK IT'S REALLY ABOUT I THINK IT'S REALLY ABOUT CONNECTING WITH A STORY THAT IS CONNECTING WITH A STORY THAT IS LARGER THAN YOU.

LARGER THAN YOU.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

WE'RE USING THESE BODIES TO TALK WE'RE USING THESE BODIES TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S MUCH ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S MUCH BIGGER THAN WE ARE.

BIGGER THAN WE ARE.

OKAY?

OKAY?

AND SO FIND CONFIDENCE IN THE AND SO FIND CONFIDENCE IN THE HISTORICAL STORY THAT WE'RE HISTORICAL STORY THAT WE'RE GONNA USE YOUR BODY TO EXPRESS GONNA USE YOUR BODY TO EXPRESS THIS STORY THROUGH.

THIS STORY THROUGH.

ONE, TWO.

ONE, TWO.

ONE, TWO.

ONE, TWO.

ONE, TWO.

ONE, TWO.

IN ONE MOMENT, THERE WAS AN IN ONE MOMENT, THERE WAS AN ENORMOUS SHIFT IN THE AMERICAN ENORMOUS SHIFT IN THE AMERICAN IMAGINATION--IN ONE MOMENT.

IMAGINATION--IN ONE MOMENT.

PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER CONSIDERED--AFRICAN-AMERICANS CONSIDERED--AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO HAD NEVER CONSIDERED THIS TO WHO HAD NEVER CONSIDERED THIS TO BE HOME, THIS TO BE A PLACE THAT BE HOME, THIS TO BE A PLACE THAT REPRESENTED THEM, SUDDENLY SAID, REPRESENTED THEM, SUDDENLY SAID, "MY COUNTRY" AND "MY PRESIDENT" "MY COUNTRY" AND "MY PRESIDENT" AND "MY, MY, MY, MY, OURS."

[soft electronic music] [soft electronic music] [man speaking Spanish] [woman and man conversing [woman and man conversing in Spanish] [both speaking Spanish] >> THIS IS ONE OF THE SITES OF >> THIS IS ONE OF THE SITES OF THE FURNITURE PIECES THAT THE FURNITURE PIECES THAT WE'RE BUILDING.

WE'RE BUILDING.

IT HAS TO LOOK ANTIQUE.

IT HAS TO LOOK ANTIQUE.

IT HAS TO LOOK ORIGINAL.

IT HAS TO LOOK ORIGINAL.

IT STARTS WITH DORIS MAKING IT STARTS WITH DORIS MAKING DRAWINGS.

DRAWINGS.

ONCE WE HAVE THE FURNITURE ONCE WE HAVE THE FURNITURE PIECES, I GET TO BUILD MODELS PIECES, I GET TO BUILD MODELS IN THE COMPUTER.

IN THE COMPUTER.

WE SIMULATE EVERY SINGLE ASPECT WE SIMULATE EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THIS FURNITURE BUSINESS.

OF THIS FURNITURE BUSINESS.

SO AFTER THAT, THEY CREATE THE SO AFTER THAT, THEY CREATE THE PLANS, AND I COME DOWN HERE AND PLANS, AND I COME DOWN HERE AND TALK A LITTLE WITH RAMON, TALK A LITTLE WITH RAMON, EXPLAIN HIM ANGLES AND EXPLAIN HIM ANGLES AND EVERYTHING.

EVERYTHING.

AND THEN WE START BY MAKING THE AND THEN WE START BY MAKING THE METAL STRUCTURE.

>> I FEEL LIKE I'M KIND OF THE >> I FEEL LIKE I'M KIND OF THE ENGINEER FOR DORIS.

ENGINEER FOR DORIS.

I HELP HER SOLVING SOME SPECIFIC I HELP HER SOLVING SOME SPECIFIC PROBLEMS.

PROBLEMS.

I'M NOT AN ENGINEER, BUT I'M NOT AN ENGINEER, BUT SOMEHOW, I HAVE A FOOT IN EACH SOMEHOW, I HAVE A FOOT IN EACH TECHNICAL AND CREATIVE THINGS, TECHNICAL AND CREATIVE THINGS, SO I CAN DEAL WITH BOTH THINGS.

IT WAS--ALWAYS MY TASK MAINLY IT WAS--ALWAYS MY TASK MAINLY WAS HOW TO JOIN THOSE PIECES.

WAS HOW TO JOIN THOSE PIECES.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT THINGS IT'S VERY DIFFICULT THINGS TO DO.

TO DO.

DORIS ALWAYS TRIES TO MAKE DORIS ALWAYS TRIES TO MAKE SOMETHING KIND OF IMPOSSIBLE.

SOMETHING KIND OF IMPOSSIBLE.

>> CARLOS DOES THE MODELING AND >> CARLOS DOES THE MODELING AND WORKED WITH DORIS IN THAT STAGE.

WORKED WITH DORIS IN THAT STAGE.

WITH RAMON, EVENTUALLY, WITH RAMON, EVENTUALLY, THEY HAVE TO LINK THEMSELVES THEY HAVE TO LINK THEMSELVES TOGETHER.

TOGETHER.

SO VIRTUALITY TO REALITY.

SO VIRTUALITY TO REALITY.

THE PIECE WORKS REALLY FROM THE PIECE WORKS REALLY FROM THE INSIDE TO THE OUTSIDE.

THE INSIDE TO THE OUTSIDE.

IT'S ALL GIVEN SO THAT THE IT'S ALL GIVEN SO THAT THE SURFACE OF THE PIECE IS SURFACE OF THE PIECE IS STRUCTURALLY ACCURATE IN EVERY STRUCTURALLY ACCURATE IN EVERY SINGLE MILLIMETER.

SINGLE MILLIMETER.

SO BEGINNING FROM THE INSIDE, SO BEGINNING FROM THE INSIDE, WE HAVE A METAL STRUCTURE THAT'S WE HAVE A METAL STRUCTURE THAT'S VERY RIGID SO THAT IT COULD HOLD VERY RIGID SO THAT IT COULD HOLD IN EVERY WAY.

IN EVERY WAY.

YOU DON'T SEE IT.

YOU DON'T SEE IT.

YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT.

YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT.

FINALLY, THIS STRUCTURE WOULD FINALLY, THIS STRUCTURE WOULD HOLD THE CONCRETE IN PLACE SO HOLD THE CONCRETE IN PLACE SO THAT IT DOESN'T STICK OUT.

THAT IT DOESN'T STICK OUT.

IT DOESN'T CRACK, IT DOESN'T CRACK, IT STAYS STABLE IT STAYS STABLE WHEN IT'S BEING CAST.

WHEN IT'S BEING CAST.

THE SURFACE HAS TO PREVAIL ABOVE THE SURFACE HAS TO PREVAIL ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT, OF COURSE, EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT, OF COURSE, THE POETIC MEANING IS THE-- THE POETIC MEANING IS THE-- WHICH IS IN THE SURFACE, WHICH IS IN THE SURFACE, IT'S TOTALLY POETIC.

IT'S TOTALLY POETIC.

>> MY WORK IS BASED NOT ON MY >> MY WORK IS BASED NOT ON MY EXPERIENCE BUT ON SOMEBODY EXPERIENCE BUT ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S EXPERIENCE.

ELSE'S EXPERIENCE.

"EXPERIENCE" COMES FROM THE "EXPERIENCE" COMES FROM THE WHICH MEANS WHICH MEANS "TO TEST, TO PROVE," FROM THE "TO TEST, TO PROVE," FROM THE WHICH MEANS WHICH MEANS "PERIL, DANGER," AND ALSO FROM "PERIL, DANGER," AND ALSO FROM PER, PER, WHICH MEANS "GOING ACROSS."

WHICH MEANS "GOING ACROSS."

SO "EXPERIENCE" MEANS SO "EXPERIENCE" MEANS "GOING ACROSS DANGER."

"GOING ACROSS DANGER."

SO MY WORK IS ABOUT SOMEBODY SO MY WORK IS ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE'S EXPERIENCE LITERALLY ELSE'S EXPERIENCE LITERALLY DEFINED.

DEFINED.

I COME FROM COLOMBIA, A COUNTRY I COME FROM COLOMBIA, A COUNTRY WHERE THERE'S NOTHING BUT RUINS.

WHERE THERE'S NOTHING BUT RUINS.

THAT'S WHAT WARS, IMPERIALISM, THAT'S WHAT WARS, IMPERIALISM, COLONIALISM LEFT US.

COLONIALISM LEFT US.

SO THAT MARKS MY PERSPECTIVE, SO THAT MARKS MY PERSPECTIVE, AND THAT'S REALLY THE POINT: AND THAT'S REALLY THE POINT: A THIRD-WORLD ARTIST.

A THIRD-WORLD ARTIST.

FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM, FROM PERSPECTIVE OF THE VICTIM, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE DEFEATED THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE DEFEATED PEOPLE, IT'S WHAT I'M SEEING.

PEOPLE, IT'S WHAT I'M SEEING.

I'M LOOKING AT THE WORLD.

I'M LOOKING AT THE WORLD.

SO I'M TRYING TO RESCUE THAT SO I'M TRYING TO RESCUE THAT MEMORY, IF IT COULD BE POSSIBLE.

MEMORY, IF IT COULD BE POSSIBLE.

BUT, OF COURSE, I DON'T SUCCEED.

BUT, OF COURSE, I DON'T SUCCEED.

SO THAT'S WHY MY WORK DOES NOT SO THAT'S WHY MY WORK DOES NOT REPRESENT SOMETHING.

REPRESENT SOMETHING.

IT'S SIMPLY-- IT'S SIMPLY-- IT'S A HINT OF SOMETHING.

IT'S A HINT OF SOMETHING.

IT IS TRYING TO BRING INTO IT IS TRYING TO BRING INTO OUR PRESENCE SOMETHING THAT OUR PRESENCE SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER HERE.

IS NO LONGER HERE.

SO IT IS SUBTLE.

SO IT IS SUBTLE.

I HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO, I HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO, IN THE MOST GENEROUS WAY, IN THE MOST GENEROUS WAY, HELP ME TO MAKE THE PIECES.

HELP ME TO MAKE THE PIECES.

IT IS A COLLECTIVE EFFORT.

IT IS A COLLECTIVE EFFORT.

I WORK WITH ARCHITECTS, I WORK WITH ARCHITECTS, AND THIS TEAM OF ARCHITECTS ARE AND THIS TEAM OF ARCHITECTS ARE CONTINUOUSLY GIVING ME THEIR CONTINUOUSLY GIVING ME THEIR CREATIVITY, THEIR IDEAS, CREATIVITY, THEIR IDEAS, THEIR INPUT INTO THE WAY THEIR INPUT INTO THE WAY THE PIECES COULD BE MADE.

THE PIECES COULD BE MADE.

EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A VERY EVEN THOUGH I HAVE A VERY PRECISE IDEA OF WHAT I WANT, PRECISE IDEA OF WHAT I WANT, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE MAKING THAT IMAGE POSSIBLE.

MAKING THAT IMAGE POSSIBLE.

THEY ARE BUILDING IT IN THEY ARE BUILDING IT IN MATERIAL.

MATERIAL.

[torch hissing] [torch hissing] THE PROCESS OF MAKING A PIECE, THE PROCESS OF MAKING A PIECE, IT'S SORT OF A SCHIZOPHRENIC IT'S SORT OF A SCHIZOPHRENIC GAME WHERE YOU TRY TO PUT GAME WHERE YOU TRY TO PUT YOUR CENTER IN THE CENTER YOUR CENTER IN THE CENTER OF THE PERSON YOU ARE OF THE PERSON YOU ARE INTERVIEWING, OF THE WITNESS.

INTERVIEWING, OF THE WITNESS.

AND THEN YOU TRY TO LOOK AT AND THEN YOU TRY TO LOOK AT YOURSELF FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

YOURSELF FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

FOR MANY YEARS, I'VE BEEN FOR MANY YEARS, I'VE BEEN TALKING TO VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE TALKING TO VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE AFTER TERRIBLE EVENTS TOOK AFTER TERRIBLE EVENTS TOOK PLACE.

PLACE.

I WILL GO TO THE SITES AND I WILL GO TO THE SITES AND INTERVIEW PEOPLE AND GATHER INTERVIEW PEOPLE AND GATHER OBJECTS, AND MY WORK WAS BUILT OBJECTS, AND MY WORK WAS BUILT BASED ON THE WORDS THAT THE BASED ON THE WORDS THAT THE WITNESS HAVE TOLD ME.

WITNESS HAVE TOLD ME.

SO I USED TO THINK OF MYSELF SO I USED TO THINK OF MYSELF AS A SECONDARY WITNESS.

AS A SECONDARY WITNESS.

AS AN ARTIST, I HAVE AS AN ARTIST, I HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY.

A RESPONSIBILITY.

I HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE WORK I HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE WORK ELEMENTS AND WORK WITH WHATEVER ELEMENTS AND WORK WITH WHATEVER MATERIAL IS GIVEN TO ME.

MATERIAL IS GIVEN TO ME.

I DON'T WORK BASED ON I DON'T WORK BASED ON IMAGINATION OR FICTION.

IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING I WAS EMBROIDERING I WAS EMBROIDERING HAIR ON WOOD AND GOING ACROSS HAIR ON WOOD AND GOING ACROSS WITH A NEEDLE THROUGH WOOD WITH A NEEDLE THROUGH WOOD WITH HAIR.

WITH HAIR.

OF COURSE, IT'S AN INSANE OF COURSE, IT'S AN INSANE GESTURE.

GESTURE.

IT'S AN ABSURD GESTURE.

IT'S AN ABSURD GESTURE.

AND IT IS A HUGE, HUGE, AND IT IS A HUGE, HUGE, ABSURD WASTE OF ENERGY.

ABSURD WASTE OF ENERGY.

AND WE WERE WORKING WITH A TEAM AND WE WERE WORKING WITH A TEAM OF 15 PEOPLE FOR THREE YEARS OF 15 PEOPLE FOR THREE YEARS NONSTOP ON THOSE PIECES.

NONSTOP ON THOSE PIECES.

SO IT REMIND ME OF PAUL CELAN, SO IT REMIND ME OF PAUL CELAN, THE POET.

THE POET.

PAUL CELAN SAID THAT PAUL CELAN SAID THAT "IT IS ONLY ABSURDITY WHICH "IT IS ONLY ABSURDITY WHICH SHOWS THE PRESENCE SHOWS THE PRESENCE OF THE HUMAN."

OF THE HUMAN."

IN THAT SENSE, IN THAT SENSE, BUT ALSO IT WAS RELATED BUT ALSO IT WAS RELATED TO THE WASTE OF LIVES HERE.

TO THE WASTE OF LIVES HERE.

IT WAS THE HEIGHT OF THE IT WAS THE HEIGHT OF THE PARAMILITARY MASSACRES PARAMILITARY MASSACRES IN COLOMBIA.

IN COLOMBIA.

IT WAS MY WAY OF SHOWING IT WAS MY WAY OF SHOWING HOW LIFE COULD BE WASTED.

HOW LIFE COULD BE WASTED.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU COULD BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU COULD BUILD SOMETHING THAT WAS POETIC, BUILD SOMETHING THAT WAS POETIC, THAT COULD GIVE TESTIMONY THAT COULD GIVE TESTIMONY TO THE HUMAN PRESENCE TO THE HUMAN PRESENCE AND TO THE HUMANNESS AND TO THE HUMANNESS OF THESE VICTIMS OF THESE VICTIMS AND THE FRAGILITY OF LIFE AND THE FRAGILITY OF LIFE AND THE BRUTALITY OF POWER.

AND THE BRUTALITY OF POWER.

I THINK EVERYTHING WAS THERE I THINK EVERYTHING WAS THERE IN THAT GESTURE OF SEWING IN THAT GESTURE OF SEWING THROUGH WOOD.

THROUGH WOOD.

>> THERE WERE TABLES.

>> THERE WERE TABLES.

THERE WERE TABLES TOGETHER, THERE WERE TABLES TOGETHER, VERY INTERESTING JOINTS VERY INTERESTING JOINTS WITH THE OLD FURNITURE, LIKE WITH THE OLD FURNITURE, LIKE MANY OF THE PIECES OF DORIS.

MANY OF THE PIECES OF DORIS.

MY PARTICULAR TASK WAS HOW TO MY PARTICULAR TASK WAS HOW TO JOIN THEM.

JOIN THEM.

I WAS HELPING TO--DRILLING I WAS HELPING TO--DRILLING THOSE HOLES.

THOSE HOLES.

I WAS DRILLING AND DRILLING I WAS DRILLING AND DRILLING AND DRILLING MILLIONS OF HOLES.

AND DRILLING MILLIONS OF HOLES.

AND THEN IT HAPPENS: AND THEN IT HAPPENS: SOME SHOTS IN THE STREETS, SOME SHOTS IN THE STREETS, AND--AND WE--AND WE HEARD AND--AND WE--AND WE HEARD POW-POW-POW-POW-POW, POW-POW-POW-POW-POW, AND SOMETHING HAPPENED.

AND SOMETHING HAPPENED.

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS, I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS, BUT THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE BUT THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE STREETS.

STREETS.

SOMETHING HAPPENED.

SOMETHING HAPPENED.

AND SUDDENLY YOU UNDERSTAND WHY AND SUDDENLY YOU UNDERSTAND WHY YOU HAVE TO MAKE MILLIONS OF YOU HAVE TO MAKE MILLIONS OF HOLES, AND IT WASN'T RATIONAL, HOLES, AND IT WASN'T RATIONAL, BUT IT MAKE SENSE.

BUT IT MAKE SENSE.

IN THAT MOMENT, IT MAKE SENSE IN THAT MOMENT, IT MAKE SENSE TO MAKE MILLIONS OF HOLES, TO MAKE MILLIONS OF HOLES, LIKE--LIKE A MONK, LIKE--LIKE A MONK, DOING THAT ALL THE TIME-- DOING THAT ALL THE TIME-- MILLIONS OF HOLES.

>> I WAS RESEARCHING SEVERAL >> I WAS RESEARCHING SEVERAL CASES OF PEOPLE THAT HAD BEEN CASES OF PEOPLE THAT HAD BEEN DISAPPEARED.

DISAPPEARED.

FINALLY I FOCUS ON ONE CASE, FINALLY I FOCUS ON ONE CASE, AND I LEARNED THAT IN ART AND I LEARNED THAT IN ART EVERYTHING IS PARTICULAR, EVERYTHING IS PARTICULAR, AND THE MORE PARTICULAR AND THE AND THE MORE PARTICULAR AND THE MORE INTIMATE YOU GET, MORE INTIMATE YOU GET, THE MORE YOU CAN GIVE THE MORE YOU CAN GIVE IN THE PIECE.

IN THE PIECE.

[speaking indistinctly] [speaking indistinctly] IF I'M WORKING WITH POOR PEOPLE, IF I'M WORKING WITH POOR PEOPLE, VERY POOR PEOPLE, THERE VERY POOR PEOPLE, THERE ARE MINIMAL RESOURCES.

ARE MINIMAL RESOURCES.

SO I LIMIT MY RESOURCES SO I LIMIT MY RESOURCES ACCORDING TO WHICHEVER TESTIMONY ACCORDING TO WHICHEVER TESTIMONY I'M WORKING ON.

I'M WORKING ON.

I HAD PLACED I HAD PLACED MYSELF WITH MANY MORE RESOURCES MYSELF WITH MANY MORE RESOURCES IN WORKING WITH THE MOST IN WORKING WITH THE MOST DESPICABLE MATERIAL YOU CAN DESPICABLE MATERIAL YOU CAN THINK OF, SOMETHING THAT WE ALL THINK OF, SOMETHING THAT WE ALL FEEL REPELLED BY: FEEL REPELLED BY: COW BLADDERS, ON ONE HAND, COW BLADDERS, ON ONE HAND, AND OLD SHOES.

AND OLD SHOES.

WE DON'T LIKE OLD SHOES.

WE DON'T LIKE OLD SHOES.

BUT NEVERTHELESS, EVERY TIME BUT NEVERTHELESS, EVERY TIME WE SEE A SHOE ON THE STREET, WE SEE A SHOE ON THE STREET, WE WONDER WHAT HAPPENED THERE, WE WONDER WHAT HAPPENED THERE, SINCE IT'S THE WRONG PLACE SINCE IT'S THE WRONG PLACE FOR THAT SHOE TO BE.

I WANTED TO MAKE THAT PRIVATE I WANTED TO MAKE THAT PRIVATE PAIN INTO SOMETHING PUBLIC PAIN INTO SOMETHING PUBLIC BECAUSE IT IS NOT BECAUSE IT IS NOT A PRIVATE PROBLEM.

A PRIVATE PROBLEM.

IT IS A SOCIAL PROBLEM.

IT IS A SOCIAL PROBLEM.

THAT'S WHY I MADE MANY NICHES THAT'S WHY I MADE MANY NICHES IN ONE SPACE.

>> IN THE POLITICAL REALM >> IN THE POLITICAL REALM OF COLOMBIA, SINCE 1948, OF COLOMBIA, SINCE 1948, THERE'S BEEN A PERIOD CALLED THERE'S BEEN A PERIOD CALLED LA VIOLENCIA: LA VIOLENCIA: WAR, DESTRUCTION, WAR, DESTRUCTION, PEOPLE BEING DISPLACED, PEOPLE BEING DISPLACED, PEOPLE SO POOR THAT THEY DON'T PEOPLE SO POOR THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER OPTION BUT GET HAVE ANY OTHER OPTION BUT GET INVOLVED INTO NARCO-TRAFFIC, INVOLVED INTO NARCO-TRAFFIC, ALL THESE BAD THINGS.

ALL THESE BAD THINGS.

>> I WAS WITNESS TO THE SEIZURE >> I WAS WITNESS TO THE SEIZURE OF THE PALACE OF JUSTICE, OF THE PALACE OF JUSTICE, WHERE MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHERE MANY, MANY PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

WERE KILLED.

I WAS WORKING TWO BLOCKS AWAY.

I WAS WORKING TWO BLOCKS AWAY.

THE LIMITS OF VIOLENCE THE LIMITS OF VIOLENCE SEEMED TO BE LOST AT THAT TIME SEEMED TO BE LOST AT THAT TIME IN COLOMBIA.

IN COLOMBIA.

THE WHOLE IDEA WAS TO FOLLOW THE WHOLE IDEA WAS TO FOLLOW THE TEMPO OF THE BATTLE, THE TEMPO OF THE BATTLE, OF THE SEIZURE.

OF THE SEIZURE.

WE STARTED AT 11:35 A.M. SHARP, WE STARTED AT 11:35 A.M. SHARP, 'CAUSE THAT WAS THE TIME WHEN 'CAUSE THAT WAS THE TIME WHEN THE FIRST PERSON WAS KILLED.

THE FIRST PERSON WAS KILLED.

WE HAD DIFFERENT OBJECTS WE HAD DIFFERENT OBJECTS FLOWING DOWN THE FACADE FLOWING DOWN THE FACADE AT DIFFERENT TEMPOS.

AT DIFFERENT TEMPOS.

IT WAS THE TIMING OF IT.

IT WAS THE TIMING OF IT.

IT WAS VERY, VERY, VERY IT WAS VERY, VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

IMPORTANT.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING THROUGH TIME.

HAPPENING THROUGH TIME.

AND TIME WAS CERTAINLY AND TIME WAS CERTAINLY AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF THIS PIECE OF THIS PIECE THAT LASTED ONLY 53 HOURS, THAT LASTED ONLY 53 HOURS, WHICH WAS THE SAME TIME WHICH WAS THE SAME TIME THAT THE SEIZURE LASTED.

THAT THE SEIZURE LASTED.

>> THE SET OF PLANS WAS ABOUT >> THE SET OF PLANS WAS ABOUT 300 OR 400 PAGES.

300 OR 400 PAGES.

EACH PAPER WAS A TIME DURATION EACH PAPER WAS A TIME DURATION FOR THE SPECIFIC PATTERN.

FOR THE SPECIFIC PATTERN.

WE WERE REALLY PERFORMING WE WERE REALLY PERFORMING THROUGH THE DIRECTING OF DORIS THROUGH THE DIRECTING OF DORIS THAT DAY.

THAT DAY.

SHE WAS DOWNSTAIRS IN THE STREET SHE WAS DOWNSTAIRS IN THE STREET TALKING TO US, AND WE WERE TALKING TO US, AND WE WERE UPSTAIRS MAKING IT WORK.

UPSTAIRS MAKING IT WORK.

EVERYTHING WAS LABELED, EVERYTHING WAS LABELED, AND THERE WAS A NUMBERING AND THERE WAS A NUMBERING THAT WE HAD TO FOLLOW.

THAT WE HAD TO FOLLOW.

LIKE IN A MUSICAL PIECE, LIKE IN A MUSICAL PIECE, WELL, YOU READ MUSIC, WELL, YOU READ MUSIC, AND YOU PERFORM IT.

AND YOU PERFORM IT.

I WAS A SMALL KID WHEN THIS I WAS A SMALL KID WHEN THIS HAPPENED IN 1985.

HAPPENED IN 1985.

MY MEMORY OF IT IS VERY BLURRED, MY MEMORY OF IT IS VERY BLURRED, BUT SOMEHOW THROUGH THIS PIECE, BUT SOMEHOW THROUGH THIS PIECE, IT HAS BECOME PART OF MY OWN IT HAS BECOME PART OF MY OWN BIOGRAPHY OR BIOGRAPHICAL BIOGRAPHY OR BIOGRAPHICAL MEMORY.

>> THERE WAS A LITTLE CRACK >> THERE WAS A LITTLE CRACK ON THE FLOOR OF THE TATE, ON THE FLOOR OF THE TATE, AND DORIS NOTICED IT AND DORIS NOTICED IT FROM THE FIRST VISIT FROM THE FIRST VISIT AND DECIDED TO MAKE IT AND DECIDED TO MAKE IT THE ORIGIN OF THIS PIECE.

THE ORIGIN OF THIS PIECE.

THIS IS THE COMPLETE DRAWING THIS IS THE COMPLETE DRAWING THAT DORIS MADE OF 160 METERS.

THAT DORIS MADE OF 160 METERS.

EVERY SINGLE CENTIMETER WAS EVERY SINGLE CENTIMETER WAS DRAWN BY HAND BY DORIS.

DRAWN BY HAND BY DORIS.

WE DID OUR RESEARCH ON CRACKS, WE DID OUR RESEARCH ON CRACKS, HOW A CRACK BEHAVES.

HOW A CRACK BEHAVES.

WE WERE EXAMINING HOW IS WE WERE EXAMINING HOW IS THE EDGE, HOW IS THE INTERIOR, THE EDGE, HOW IS THE INTERIOR, OF CRACKS ON GROUND, OF CRACKS ON GROUND, ON CONCRETE, ON BUILDINGS.

ON CONCRETE, ON BUILDINGS.

AT THE BEGINNING, WE LOOKED LIKE AT THE BEGINNING, WE LOOKED LIKE A BUNCH OF CRAZY PEOPLE A BUNCH OF CRAZY PEOPLE IN THE STREET STARING DOWN IN THE STREET STARING DOWN AT CRACKS ON FLOOR OR WALLS.

AT CRACKS ON FLOOR OR WALLS.

NEXT STEP, TRY TO FIGURE OUT NEXT STEP, TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE A PREFABRICATED HOW TO MAKE A PREFABRICATED CRACK AND THEN EXPORT IT CRACK AND THEN EXPORT IT TO LONDON.

TO LONDON.

SO WE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA SO WE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF MAKING A METAL STRUCTURE, OF MAKING A METAL STRUCTURE, JUST LIKE YOU MAKE A TYPICAL JUST LIKE YOU MAKE A TYPICAL SLAB OF CONCRETE SLAB OF CONCRETE BUT WITH THE SHAPE OF THE ROCK.

BUT WITH THE SHAPE OF THE ROCK.

SO HERE ARE THE GUYS MOLDING SO HERE ARE THE GUYS MOLDING STEEL, FOLLOWING THE EXACT STEEL, FOLLOWING THE EXACT PRECISE SHAPE OF THE STONE.

PRECISE SHAPE OF THE STONE.

THEN WE WOULD POUR CONCRETE.

THEN WE WOULD POUR CONCRETE.

THE FINAL RESULT WOULD BE THE FINAL RESULT WOULD BE THE CAST WITH THE MESH EMBEDDED THE CAST WITH THE MESH EMBEDDED WITH HIS TWIN, OPPOSITE TWIN.

WITH HIS TWIN, OPPOSITE TWIN.

WE CONSTRUCTED 320 METERS WE CONSTRUCTED 320 METERS OF CONCRETE, 'CAUSE WE HAD TO DO OF CONCRETE, 'CAUSE WE HAD TO DO IT BOTH OF THE FACES OF IT BOTH OF THE FACES OF THE CRACK.

THE CRACK.

IT WENT PRETTY MUCH AS WE IT WENT PRETTY MUCH AS WE PLANNED, BUT THE IMAGE, PLANNED, BUT THE IMAGE, THE RESULT IS SOMETHING THAT THE RESULT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU CANNOT IMAGINE UNTIL YOU CANNOT IMAGINE UNTIL YOU SEE IT.

YOU SEE IT.

>> WHEN I WENT TO VISIT THE >> WHEN I WENT TO VISIT THE SPACE BEFORE I THOUGHT OF SPACE BEFORE I THOUGHT OF THE PIECE, WHAT STRUCK ME THE PIECE, WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THE ATTITUDE OF PEOPLE WAS THE ATTITUDE OF PEOPLE THAT WERE WALKING IN THE SPACE.

THAT WERE WALKING IN THE SPACE.

EVERYBODY LOOKED UP, EVERYBODY LOOKED UP, AND THEY FELT LIKE IT WAS AND THEY FELT LIKE IT WAS AN AMAZING SPACE.

AN AMAZING SPACE.

AND I WAS THINKING, AND I WAS THINKING, "IT'S NOT THAT EXTRAORDINARY.

"IT'S NOT THAT EXTRAORDINARY.

IT'S AN INDUSTRIAL MODERNIST IT'S AN INDUSTRIAL MODERNIST SPACE.

SPACE.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE.

IT'S NOT LIKE YOU ARE ENTERING IT'S NOT LIKE YOU ARE ENTERING HAGIA SOPHIA OR YOU ARE IN FRONT HAGIA SOPHIA OR YOU ARE IN FRONT OF THE PYRAMIDS IN EGYPT."

OF THE PYRAMIDS IN EGYPT."

BUT PEOPLE HAD THAT IMPRESSION, BUT PEOPLE HAD THAT IMPRESSION, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS AND I THOUGHT IT WAS UNBELIEVABLY NARCISSISTIC.

UNBELIEVABLY NARCISSISTIC.

SO WHAT I WANTED TO DO SO WHAT I WANTED TO DO WAS TO TURN UPSIDE DOWN THAT WAS TO TURN UPSIDE DOWN THAT PERSPECTIVE, AND INSTEAD OF PERSPECTIVE, AND INSTEAD OF LOOKING UP, YOU HAVE TO LOOK LOOKING UP, YOU HAVE TO LOOK DOWN AS WAY OF SEEING REALITY.

DOWN AS WAY OF SEEING REALITY.

SO I WANTED TO INSCRIBE SO I WANTED TO INSCRIBE IN THIS MODERNIST, IN THIS MODERNIST, RATIONALIST BUILDING AN IMAGE RATIONALIST BUILDING AN IMAGE THAT WAS SOMEHOW CHAOTIC AND THAT WAS SOMEHOW CHAOTIC AND THAT MARKED A NEGATIVE SPACE, THAT MARKED A NEGATIVE SPACE, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS A BOTTOMLESS GAP THAT DIVIDES A BOTTOMLESS GAP THAT DIVIDES HUMANITY FROM INHUMANITY HUMANITY FROM INHUMANITY OR WHITES FROM NONWHITES.

OR WHITES FROM NONWHITES.

SO I WANTED TO ADDRESS THAT GAP.

SO I WANTED TO ADDRESS THAT GAP.

AND I THOUGHT THAT GAP AND I THOUGHT THAT GAP WAS MAINLY PERCEIVED WAS MAINLY PERCEIVED IN THE HISTORY OF MODERNITY.

IN THE HISTORY OF MODERNITY.

WHEN YOU READ THE HISTORY WHEN YOU READ THE HISTORY OF MODERNITY, IT IS NARRATED OF MODERNITY, IT IS NARRATED AS AN ONLY EUROPEAN EVENT.

AS AN ONLY EUROPEAN EVENT.

NOBODY ELSE PARTICIPATED NOBODY ELSE PARTICIPATED IN THAT.

IN THAT.

AND THE IDEAS OF COLONIALISM, AND THE IDEAS OF COLONIALISM, OF IMPERIALISM, ARE MARGINALIZED OF IMPERIALISM, ARE MARGINALIZED TO SAY THE LEAST.

TO SAY THE LEAST.

SO I WANTED THIS HISTORY SO I WANTED THIS HISTORY OF RACISM TO COME UP OF RACISM TO COME UP BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE HISTORY BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE HISTORY OF RACISM, IT'S THE UNTOLD OF RACISM, IT'S THE UNTOLD DARK SIDE OF THE HISTORY DARK SIDE OF THE HISTORY OF MODERNITY.

OF MODERNITY.

THAT'S WHY I WANTED THIS CRACK THAT'S WHY I WANTED THIS CRACK TO BREAK THE BUILDING TO BREAK THE BUILDING AND TO INTRUDE IN THE BUILDING AND TO INTRUDE IN THE BUILDING ALMOST THE SAME WAY A NONWHITE ALMOST THE SAME WAY A NONWHITE IMMIGRANT INTRUDES IN THE IMMIGRANT INTRUDES IN THE SAMENESS AND CONSENSUS SAMENESS AND CONSENSUS OF WHITE SOCIETY.

OF WHITE SOCIETY.

SHIBBOLETH, SHIBBOLETH, IT'S A WORD THAT I TOOK IT'S A WORD THAT I TOOK FROM JUDGES IN THE BIBLE.

FROM JUDGES IN THE BIBLE.

THEY DESCRIBE THIS WAR BETWEEN THEY DESCRIBE THIS WAR BETWEEN TWO ISRAELI TRIBES.

TWO ISRAELI TRIBES.

THE TRIBE THAT LOST THE WAR THE TRIBE THAT LOST THE WAR WAS ATTEMPTING TO CROSS WAS ATTEMPTING TO CROSS THE JORDAN RIVER TO ESCAPE, THE JORDAN RIVER TO ESCAPE, AND AS THEY WERE CROSSING AND AS THEY WERE CROSSING THE RIVER, THEY WOULD REQUEST THE RIVER, THEY WOULD REQUEST TO PRONOUNCE THE WORD TO PRONOUNCE THE WORD "SHIBBOLETH."

"SHIBBOLETH."

THEY COULD NOT PRONOUNCE IT THEY COULD NOT PRONOUNCE IT LIKE THAT, AND THEY PRONOUNCE LIKE THAT, AND THEY PRONOUNCE IT "SEE-BOLETH."

IT "SEE-BOLETH."

AT THAT POINT, THE BIBLE AT THAT POINT, THE BIBLE DESCRIBE A HUGE MASSACRE.

DESCRIBE A HUGE MASSACRE.

42,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED 42,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED RIGHT THERE.

RIGHT THERE.

SO I USED THE WORD BECAUSE I WAS SO I USED THE WORD BECAUSE I WAS REFERRING TO THE EXPERIENCE REFERRING TO THE EXPERIENCE OF RACISM, OF THE EXPERIENCE OF RACISM, OF THE EXPERIENCE OF CROSSING BORDERS, OF CROSSING BORDERS, THE EXPERIENCE OF THE IMMIGRANT.

THE EXPERIENCE OF THE IMMIGRANT.

SO WHAT IT IS TO DIE SO WHAT IT IS TO DIE MAKING THIS ATTEMPT MAKING THIS ATTEMPT AT CROSSING A BORDER.

AT CROSSING A BORDER.

A WORD THAT DEFINES MY WORK A WORD THAT DEFINES MY WORK IS IMPOTENCE.

IS IMPOTENCE.

I AM COMPLETELY IMPOTENT.

I AM COMPLETELY IMPOTENT.

I FEEL THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE I FEEL THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS AND THAT I SIMPLY ARRIVE AND THAT I SIMPLY ARRIVE TOO LATE.

TOO LATE.

I CANNOT GIVE ANYBODY BACK I CANNOT GIVE ANYBODY BACK THEIR FATHER OR THEIR SONS.

THEIR FATHER OR THEIR SONS.

I CANNOT FIX ANY PROBLEM.

I CANNOT FIX ANY PROBLEM.

I CAN DO NOTHING.

I CAN DO NOTHING.

IT'S A LACK OF POWER.

IT'S A LACK OF POWER.

BUT THEN AS A PERSON WHO LACKS BUT THEN AS A PERSON WHO LACKS POWER, I FACE THE ONES WHO HAVE POWER, I FACE THE ONES WHO HAVE POWER AND WHO MANIPULATE LIFE.

POWER AND WHO MANIPULATE LIFE.

IT'S FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE IT'S FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE OF THE ONE WHO LACKS POWER THAT OF THE ONE WHO LACKS POWER THAT I LOOK AT THE POWERFUL ONES I LOOK AT THE POWERFUL ONES AND AT THEIR DEEDS.

[soft electronic music] [soft electronic music] >> announcer: NEXT TIME >> announcer: NEXT TIME ART:21, ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY... ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY... >> AS AN ARTIST, YOU CAN LET >> AS AN ARTIST, YOU CAN LET YOUR FANTASY GO.

YOUR FANTASY GO.

GREAT ART IS VERY IMPRACTICAL.

GREAT ART IS VERY IMPRACTICAL.

>> I WAS ON A MISSION.

>> I WAS ON A MISSION.

THE ONLY THING I THOUGHT ABOUT: THE ONLY THING I THOUGHT ABOUT: DOING ART.

DOING ART.

>> I TURNED THE FINISHED >> I TURNED THE FINISHED PHOTOGRAPH INTO A SCRIBBLE PHOTOGRAPH INTO A SCRIBBLE AGAIN.

AGAIN.

>> I WANTED TO ENTER THIS >> I WANTED TO ENTER THIS VIRTUAL WORLD TO SEE WHAT VIRTUAL WORLD TO SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING OUT THERE.

CaptionMax CaptionMax www.captionmax.com >> announcer: TO LEARN MORE >> announcer: TO LEARN MORE ART:21, ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES, AND ITS EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES, PLEASE VISIT US ONLINE AT: ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY ART:21, ART IN THE 21ST CENTURY IS AVAILABLE ON BLU-RAY AND DVD.

IS AVAILABLE ON BLU-RAY AND DVD.

THE COMPANION BOOK IS ALSO THE COMPANION BOOK IS ALSO AVAILABLE.

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