>> IN THE UNITED STATES, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS HALTED THE SHUTDOWN OF USAID FOLLOWING RELENTLESS EFFORTS BY ELON MUSK, DOGE'S GILL TEEN TO SLASH THE AGENCY.

MUSK INSIST NOES LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION COLUMNIST JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO SPEAK ABOUT THE LAYER OVERING PICTURE HE SAW IN KENYA AND SUDAN AFTER USAID SUPPLY LINES WERE CUT.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

JUST ABOUT TWO MONTHS AGO, THE PRESIDENT WANTED TO PAUSE ALL FOREIGN AID ASSISTANCE.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THIS GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THOSE STEPS?

>> WELL, I WENT TO SOUTH SUDAN TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL.

AND WILL ELON MUSK HAD SAID THAT NO ONE HAS DIED BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS THIS PAUSE TO REVIEW AID, AND YOU KNOW, WITHIN AN HOUR OF BEGINNING MY REPORTING, I HAD FOUND THE NAME OF TWO YOUNG CHILDREN.

A 10-YEAR-OLD BOY AND AN 8-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO HAD DIED BECAUSE THEIR MEDICATION, THEIR ARV MEDICATION AGAINST HIV HAD RUN OUT AND THEY COULDN'T GET NEW SOURCES.

THESE WERE ORPHANS AND VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

WHAT IS A 10-YEAR-OLD ORPHAN GOING TO DO IN SUDAN WHEN THE CASE WORKERS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE, AND AGAIN, IT TURNS OUT THAT HE DOESN'T GET MEDICINE.

HIS VIRAL LOAD INCREASES.

HE GETS AN OPPORTUNISTIC PNEUMONIA AND HE DIES.

AND OVER AND OVER IN SOUTH SUDAN, I FOUND THAT KIDS WERE BEGINNING TO DIE BECAUSE OF THE AID SHUTDOWN AND THAT IS LIKELY TO BECOME A TIDE OF SUFFERING AND DEATH IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> GIVE US SOME PERSPECTIVE.

OUR WORK ON DECREASING HIV TRANSMISSION IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD GOES BACK THROUGH MULTIPLE PRESIDENTS.

>> THE PROGRAM AGAINST AIDS MAY BE THE MOST HEROIC THING IN MY LIFETIME.

IT WAS STARTED BY GEORGE W. BUSH IF 2003.

AND THEY HAVE SAVED 26 MILLION LIVES AROUND THE WORLD.

IT IS HARD TO THINK OF ANY GOVERNMENT PROGRAM THAT HAS SAVED THAT MANY LIVES WORLDWIDE.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TALKED ABOUT CONTINUING ELEMENTS OF IT, BUT IN FACT, WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT THING WERE BEING SHUT DOWN.

THAT EVEN WHERE HUMANITARIAN WAIVERS WERE GRANTED, THAT THERE WAS NO ONE THERE TO ACTUALLY MANAGE IT, TO MAKE PAYMENTS.

SO THESE PROGRAMS WERE BEING DISMANTLED AND KIDS WERE NOT GETTING THEIR MEDICATION.

>> I THINK THERE WILL BE SOMEONE WATCHING HERE THAT SAYS, WHY IS IT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO FIGHT HIV AND AIDS IN AFRICA AND OTHER PLACES?

>> SO I WOULD OFFER TWO RESPONSES.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THESE KIDS AND YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS COSTING AMERICA JUST 12 CENTS A DAY PER PERSON TO KEEP THESE CHILDREN ALIVE, THEN YOU THINK, BOY, MAYBE THAT IS A PRETTY GOOD INVESTMENT.

AND THAT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN A BIPARTISAN VIEW IN THE UNITED STATES FOR A LONG TIME.

EVEN IF ANTIFREEZE RUNS IN YOUR VEINS, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MORAL ARGUMENT TO SAVE LIVES, THEN THERE IS A PRAGMATIC ARGUMENT OF SELF-INTEREST.

WE HAVE VALUES BUT WE ALSO HAVE INTERESTS AT STAKE.

AND ALSO WE CONFRONT CHINA WITH AIRCRAFT CARRIERS BUT WE ALSO CONFRONT CHINA WITH AID PROGRAMS.

THAT'S SO WE CAN HAVE BASE RIGHTS, LISTENING POSTS, OR THAT CHINA CAN.

WE CAN GET SUPPORT FOR OUR SANCTIONS, OR CHINA CAN GET SUPPORT AT THE U. N. FOR ITS INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS.

AND THEN BEYOND THAT, WE ALSO PROTECT OUR HEALTH IN AMERICA IN PART BY GLOBAL DISEASE SURVEILLANCE.

IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO FIGHT EBOLA IN UGANDA THAN IN AMERICA.

AND POLIO ERADICATION.

THAT IS ONE ELEMENT THAT WAS SUSPENDED.

THE RESULT WILL BE MORE POLIO WORLDWIDE AND SOME AMERICAN KIDS WILL END UP PARALYZED OR DYING.

AVIAN FLU COMING RIGHT OUT OF A PANDEMIC.

WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THE RISKS OF A PANDEMIC AND AVIAN FLU SURVEILLANCE HAS BEEN SUSPENDED, LAST I SAW, IN 49 COUNTRIES BECAUSE OF THE USAID SHUTDOWN.

SO YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A COMPELLING MORAL ARGUMENT TO SAVE LIVES WHERE WE CAN.

THERE IS ALSO AN ARGUMENT ABOUT PROTECTING OUR OWN LIVES AND OUR OWN PEOPLE.

>> YOU WORKED WITH A THINK TANK BASED OUT OF WASHINGTON, D. C. IN LONDON.

THE CENTER FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TO TRY TO COME UP WITH AN ESTIMATE OF HOW MANY LIVES ARE AT RISK IF WE CONTINUE DOWN THIS PATH.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> SO, LOOK.

A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY AND A LOT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH AID IS ACTUALLY DISMANTLED AND HOW MUCH IS REVIVED AND THERE IS LITIGATION AND THERE IS, YOU KNOW, IT IS VERY FLUID.

BUT THEIR BEST GUESS IS THAT U. S. AID CURRENTLY SBAIFS 3.

3 MILLION LIVES A YEAR AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT'S ONE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT HOW MANY LIVES WILL BE LOST IF EVERYTHING WERE SHUT DOWN.

IN FACT, I SUSPECT SOME ELEMENTS WILL BE PRESERVED, SO THE TOLL WILL BE LESS THAN THAT.

BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE WILL BE MANY, MANY, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WHO WILL DIE BECAUSE WE DECIDED TO SHUT DOWN AID, LARGELY TO FINANCE TAX CUTS FOR THE WEALTHY, IN THE U. S. AND ALSO, I SHOULD SAY, WE MEASURE THIS IN TERMS OF LIVES LOST.

BUT ASIDE FROM PEOPLE WHO DIE, THERE IS ALSO AN AWFUL LOT OF AID THAT SIMPLY IMPROVES WELL-BEING.

THAT HELPS GIRLS TO GO SCHOOL.

THAT DEWORMS CHILDREN.

WE DEWORM DOGS IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU CAN DEWORM A CHILD FOR 50 CENTS A YEAR.

THEY'RE MORE ABLE TO WORK, TO STUDY, MORE LIKELY TO BECOME LITERATE.

AND THOSE PROGRAMS AREN'T EXACTLY LIFE- SAVING BUT BOY, THEY'RE SURE LIFE ENHANCING.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT HIV.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PROGRAMS YOU HAD A CHANCE TO VISIT?

WHAT DID YOU WITNESS?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SAW WAS A PROGRAM FOR MALNOURISHED CHILDREN.

AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE SEEN CHILDREN STARVING TO DEATH BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS SHATTERING.

TYPICALLY, IT IS YOUNG KIDS IN THE FIRST FIVE YEARS OF LIFE.

OFTEN JUST AFTER THEY'VE BEEN WEANED.

THEY DON'T CRY.

BECAUSE THE BODY IS SAVING EVERY CALORIE.

EVERY BIT OF ENERGY TO KEEP THE MAJOR ORGANS FUNCTIONING.

SO THEY'RE ALMOST LIKE ZOMBIES.

EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE IN IMMENSE PAIN.

AND I WENT TO AN AREA THAT TRADITIONALLY HAD A MOBILE CLINIC GOING THERE TO BRING EMERGENCY FOOD RATIONS TO KEEP CHILDREN WHO WERE SEVERELY MALNOURISHED ALIVE.

A WEEK BEFORE, THAT WAS CUT OFF BECAUSE OF THE AID SHUTDOWN.

AND NOW IMMEDIATELY I FOUND A BUNCH OF CHILDREN WHO WERE SEVERELY ACUTELY MALNOURISHED.

NONE HAD DIED YET.

I'M SURE SOME OF THOSE WILL DIE.

AND MAYBE THE THING THAT JUST WOUNDED ME THE MOST, I WENT TO AN AREA IN THE NORTHWEST OF SOUTH SUDAN WHERE TRADITIONALLY, THERE HAD BEEN ALMOST NO HEALTH CARE.

AND WOMEN DIED IN CHILDBIRTH ROUTINELY.

AND NEWBORNS DIED AS WELL.

AND THEN IN DECEMBER, A U. S. -FUNDED MATERNITY CLINIC HAD OPENED UP THERE AND WAS SAVING WOMEN'S LIVES.

NOT ONE WOMAN HAD DIED SINCE THAT OPENED.

NOT ONE NEWBORN DIED.

AND I SHOW UP AND PEOPLE SEE ME, ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CLINIC.

THEY MISTAKENLY ASSUME I'M SOMEHOW RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGING HEALTH CARE TO THIS PLACE.

AND THERE IS A WOMAN IN LABOR AND SHE WANTS TO NAME HER BABY AFTER ME.

THE VILLAGE ELDERS SHOW UP UNDER A MAHOGANY TREE OUTSIDE AND THEY EFUSIVELY THANK ME, THANK AMERICA.

THEY SAY WOMEN ARE NOW SAFE HERE.

WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW IS THAT THE U. S. HAD JUST CUT OFF THAT PROGRAM, AND THAT CLINIC WAS ABOUT TO CLOSE, AND THAT WOMEN AGAIN WERE GOING TO BE BLEEDING TO DEATH IN THAT DUST.

AND THAT JUST BROKE MY HEART.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS JUXTAPOSITION?

THE PEOPLE YOU WERE MEETING ON THE GROUND ARE SOME OF THE POOREST ON THE PLANET.

AND THE PERSON AT THIS MOMENT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF THOSE CUTS IS LITERALLY THE RICHEST MAN ON THE PLANET.

AND I'M SPEAKING OF ELON MUSK.

>> I ASKED PEOPLE IN SOUTH SUDAN WHETHER THEY HAD HEARD OF ELON MUSK.

AND MOST HAD NOT.

WHICH IS A REFLECTION OF HOW REMOTE THE PLACE IS.

HOW LITTLE ACCESS THEY HAVE TO WORLD NEWS.

BUT WHAT I SAW WAS THESE FOLKS WHO WERE STRUGGLING WITH THEIR OWN HEALTH, WITH THEIR OWN ACCESS TO FOOD, WERE LOOKING AFTER VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

WHEN THEY COULDN'T GET MEDICATIONS, THEY WERE VOLUNTEERING ON THEIR OWN TIME TO TRY TO GET THEM TO THE HOSPITALS, TO TRY TO GET AID FOR THEM.

TO SEE FOLKS WHO HAVE NOTHING TRYING TO SHARE THEIR NOTHING WITH OTHER KIDS, WITH OTHER PEOPLE, WITH VULNERABLE PEOPLE, I FOUND KIND OF INSPIRING AND I WISH THAT WOULD INSPIRE THE WORLD'S RICHEST MAN AT A TIME WHEN HE IS DISMANTLING AMERICAN ASSISTANCE FOR SOME OF THE NEEDIEST PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

>> ONE OF THE CRITIQUES THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD IS THAT SO MUCH OF THE AID IS GOING TO INTERNATIONAL MIDDLEMEN.

WHERE IS THE SORT OF EXCESS COST IN DELIVERING THIS AID THROUGH THIS PIPELINE, AND EVEN DOWN TO THE LAST MILE?

>> I THINK THAT CRITIQUE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW?

WAY TOO MUCH AID ENDS UP BEING DIGESTED BY THESE BELTWAY BANDIT COMPANY IN THE WASHINGTON AREA.

AND I THINK WE GET A LOT MORE BANG FOR THE BUCK IF MORE AID WERE GOING DIRECTLY TO NONPROFITS IN THESE VARIOUS PLACES IN THE WORLD.

AND USAID HAS RECOGNIZED THAT.

THERE HAS BEEN AN IMPROVEMENT IN PROVIDING DIRECT ASSISTANCE.

BUT IT IS STILL, I THINK THAT IS A VERY LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE.

I THINK IT IS A LEGITIMATE CRITIQUE THAT TRUMP AND MUSK HAVE MADE THAT A LOT OF AID ISN'T AS EFFECTIVE AS IT COULD BE.

THAT THE ORGANIZATION COULD USE REFORM.

BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS NOT REFORM.

IT'S NOT MAKING IT MORE EFFICIENT.

IT'S JUST TAKING A BULLDOZER TO IT AND KNOCKING IT DOWN.

>> JUST LAST WEEK, MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE, AND NOW ACTING USAID HEAD SAID AFTER A SIX- WEEK REVIEW, WE ARE OFFICIALLY CANCELING 83% OF THE PROGRAMS AT USAID.

THE 5,200 CONTRACTS NOW CANCELED SPENT TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN WAYS THAT DID NOT SERVE, AND IN SOME CASES EVEN HARMED THE CORE INTERESTS.

UNITED STATES.

THIS IS IN SPITE OF A JUDGE RULING AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION THAT THESE ACTIONS WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THERE IS, YOU KNOW, A WIDESPREAD BELIEF THAT THE DISMANTLING OF USAID, AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY, WAS ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I'M GLAD THE JUDGE INTERVENED IN THAT CASE.

HE RESTORED EMAIL TO PEOPLE ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE.

BUT HE DID NOT ACTUALLY RESTORE THOSE PROGRAMS.

AND I'M NOT SURE HOW FEASIBLE THAT ACTUALLY WILL BE.

AND MARCO RUBIO WAS SAYING THAT THESE WERE NOT IN AMERICA'S INTERESTS.

IN THE PAST, BEFORE SERVING IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE MADE A VERY COMPELLING ARGUMENT THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD SUSTAIN OR EXTEND THESE PROGRAMS BECAUSE THEY WERE THE BEST WAY TO CHALLENGE CHINA, TO INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD, TO ADVANCE AMERICAN INTERESTS, NOT JUST OUR VALUES.

AND I WISH HE WOULD LISTEN TO WHAT HE HIMSELF HAD ADVISED IN THE PAST.

>> I THINK THERE'S ALSO SORT OF AN US VERSUS THEM FRAMING SOMETIMES.

LOOK, IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE SOMEWHERE, ABOUT 36 MILLION AMERICANS WHO ARE LIVING IN POVERTY.

47 MILLION WHO ARE FOOD INSECURE.

SO WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION MAKES THE CASE THAT WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON ASSISTING OUR OWN CITIZENS FIRST, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT LINE OF THINKING?

>> I THINK WE CAN DO A LOT MORE FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS.

I'M RIGHT NOW IN A RURAL PART OF THE COUNTRY THAT HAS REAL NEEDS WITH ADDICTION.

BUT I WOULD NOTE THAT THE APPARENT PLAN FOR DISMANTLING USAID AND SAVING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IS NOT TO PUT THAT MONEY INTO SUPPORTING VETERANS OR FIGHTING ADDICTION.

RATHER, IT SEEMS TO BE TWO THINGS.

FIRST, A PREPARATORY EFFORT TO MAKE A RUN AT MEDICAID AND CUT FUNDING ON MEDICAID, AND PERHAPS SOCIAL SECURITY, AND THESE SAVINGS TOGETHER WOULD GO TO EXTEND THE TRUMP TAX CUTS, 49% OF WHICH GO TO THE TOP 5% OF AMERICANS.

SO A LOT OF THIS IS TAKING MONEY THAT IS KEEPING CHILDREN ALIVE FOR 12 CENTS A DAY, AND USING THAT TO FUND TAX CUTS FOR SOME OF THE WEALTHIEST AMERICANS.

BUT YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS ALSO KEEPING AMERICANS SAFE FROM EBOLA, FROM AVIAN FLU, FROM POLIO, FROM TUBERCULOSIS.

TUBERCULOSIS IS LIKELY TO SPREAD.

THE U. S. HAS BEEN A MAJOR FUNDER.

IN EVERY CASE, IT COSTS $500,000 TO TREAT.

IT'S A LOT CHEAPER TO DEAL WITH THOSE AND LIMIT THEIR SPREAD IN OTHER COUNTRIES RATHER THAN TO SPEND $500,000 A CASE TO DEAL WITH IT HERE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THESE TOPICS OF POVERTY AND GLOBAL HEALTH FOR LITERALLY DECADES NOW.

AND OFTENTIMES, YOU HAVE MADE IT A POINT TO FIND PEOPLE ON DIFFERENT SORTS OF ENDS OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM THAT CAN AGREE THAT THESE SHOULD BE IMPORTANT PRIORITIES FOR THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THOSE VOICES NOW?

ESPECIALLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE WHEN THEY SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING AND YET MAYBE JUST SIX MONTHS AGO, THEY, OR A YEAR OR TWO AGO, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN VOCIFEROUS IN SUPPORT OF THESE PROGRAMS CONTINUING.

>> AS YOU SUGGEST, THERE ARE A LOT OF BLEEDING HEART CONSERVATIVES AS WELL AS BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS.

AND THE EVANGELICAL RIGHT HAS DONE HEROIC WORK THIS ISSUE ALONG WITH THE SECULAR LIBERALS.

AND I THINK THAT THESE FOLKS STILL CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

I THINK THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO DEEPLY CARE ABOUT THIS, WHO ARE EMBARRASSED ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

I THINK THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT BEING PRIMARIED.

I THINK THEY'RE INTIMIDATED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INCLINATION, AND ELON MUSK'S TENDENCY TO BULLY PEOPLE, TO ANNOUNCE THEM ONLINE.

AND SO THEY SAY THEY'RE TRYING TO WORK BEHIND THE SCENES.

AID GROUPS, INCLUDING CHRISTIAN AID GROUPS, ARE NERVOUS IF THEY SPEAK OUT, THAT THEY'LL THEN BE REVENGE ATTACKS ON THEM AND LOSE MORE FUNDING AND HURT MORE PEOPLE.

I HAVE TO SAY IN REPORTING THIS STORY, I TALKED TO A LOT OF AID GROUPS.

AND IT REMINDED ME OF MY DAYS REPORTING IN CHINA THAT PEOPLE WERE SO SCARED TO SPEAK.

THEY WERE SO SCARED TO USE EMAIL.

AND IT'S KIND OF SAD WHEN GROUPS THAT ARE TRULY DOING THE LORD'S WORK ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE GREAT STUFF THAT AMERICA DOES, SAVING LIVES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> YOU HAD SOME COMPELLING STORIES THAT YOU WROTE.

SINCE YOU'VE BEEN BACK, HAVE YOU HAD ANY UPDATES ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TOFULLY OF THOSE CHILDREN?

>> I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH WHATSAPP.

MOSTLY THEY ARE FORMER SOCIAL WORKERS IN THE EFFORT TO HELP THE CHILDREN AND THEY WERE LAID OFF.

THEY'RE STILL TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY CAN ON THEIR OWN TO KEEP PROGRAMS GOING.

YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY, THE UPSHOT IS KIDS GETTING MORE SICK.

IT TAKES A WHILE FOR SOMEBODY WHEN THEY AREN'T GETTING THEIR HIV MEDICATION TO GET MORE SICK.

WHEN PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING FOOD, TO GET MORE MALNOURISHED.

FOR AN INFECTION TO COME ALONG.

BUT THAT IS LAPPING.

SO WHAT I'M HEARING IS THERE WILL BE A REAL TIDE OF DISEASE AND MORTALITY IN THE COMING MONTHS.

>> COLUMNIST FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES. "

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>