I'm Seymour Battle.

And joining us today is Christo Brand, author of the book Doing Life with Mandela My Prisoner, My Friend.

Christo, welcome to San Antonio and thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you, sir.

Now, I understand your first experience here in San Antonio.

You had a chance to take in the Spurs game, can Tell us a little bit about that experience and how how you enjoyed that.

You know, it was out of the Spurs games.

My second time, my visit, I see basketball games.

One was in Kansas and our last night here, it was very excited.

But, you know, I was hoping the Spurs could have won But the one gentleman was with us.

He left to go to to the end.

And then after he left, we started losing.

We losing And at the end, I believe we will win with one point.

Like the Springboks.

But at the end, we lose totaling more than more than one point.

Well, good, good.

Now, you mentioned to me, as we talked earlier, you mentioned to me about the experience with the Spurs and the, the athletes international aspect of the game.

can you a little bit about that and how that Mandela's teachings inspired you.

You know, if you look into how Mandela, when you walk out of prison, you try to reconcile people with each other together.

And one of the things he was very successful was in sports.

In sports, for instance, you see black and white playing together.

Don't see a color when you put up the apartheid.

You see that day, 1995, people were talking each other, celebrating and everything.

In about two weeks ago, we have the World Cup again.

I walk in the waterfront, black and white were drinking, partying, seeing together there was interacting with each other.

There was a vibe of people enjoying the game.

And that same vibe I see last night with the Spurs, when I was watching the game, my city was black and white and people playing together.

And that was also a stand together and they fighting for that, winning the game.

But Mandela's he's not always like to win a game.

Sometimes you lose, but when you lose, you must always go to your opponent and congratulate him and tell him that is the last time.

We will try.

Next time, he will beat you.

Thank you for sharing it.

And we are certainly proud of that here in our city and San Antonio with, you know, the diversity here in our city and our team always working as a team and and we never dividing us.

So.

Let's talk we talked about it, but we're open to talking about the book.

Can you tell us really what the inspiration was to writing the book?

You know, I didn't want to write a book at all after my son passed.

Mandela Contact me and I visited him.

And on that day he said to me, Mr.

Brand, we have the same things in common.

We same we both come from the rural areas.

We both land in a city of apartheid.

We both land me as a prison guard we both lost our eldest son in a car accident.

I want you to write a book about your relationship.

And I say to him, President Mandela, if I must write a book about our relationship, I end up in prison tomorrow for all the illegal things I done.

For one was a prisoner.

He look at me.

He said, Mr.

Brand, I'm the president today.

I can protect you.

But still, he put so much pressure on me.

Six years later, he sent a lady to me.

With the instructions you get from the president.

It is.

It is not getting younger.

You're getting older.

He can't wait for my book to be launched any more.

You must help me to get my book finalized.

So this lady help me with my book.

And Mandela was very excited.

He even promised me, You want to be at my book launch.

But what happened before my book was totally finalized.

Mandela read the first part.

He gets sick, end up in the hospital, and then he passed.

Okay.

Thank you for sharing.

And I'm sure he was proud that you finished to finished the project and allowing us to share with it.

Now, you kind of alluded to it earlier about the childhood and the similarities between your your upbringing and Mandela's.

Can you share a little bit about your early childhood, how it how it kind of set you off on a path where I grew up on a farm.

I was the only white child playing with African children.

My father was just a foreman.

He was very poor that year.

We were not even allowed to go to rich farmers house.

You always meet us outside.

And one day I was disrespectful to elderly African men.

When my father gave me said to me The person can be black, but a human being like us, we must respect each other as human beings by all.

Always.

My father met the example in front of God.

We are all the same colors.

He always say that.

So he grew up with that respect.

But many years later, when I end up in a city and I start before I left school, I see this something change different in the city.

I don't have any more black friends at all.

Yeah, well, thank you.

And you mentioned your father in telling that story.

Now, your father passed away when you were 12.

And really challenges, you know.

Can you speak about that time of your life?

Did it change you?

Did that seeing you to the city have anything with you moving into the city?

When I moved to the city at the age of 12, my father passed.

He was having pneumonia.

he was in the hospital.

So they chased us off the farm.

And in a city, like I said, I didn't see anything about apartheid.

I didn't realize that at all till I found out I don't have black friends anymore.

But when I left school, all white, most children in South Africa was called up for military service.

It was compulsory for two years, but the year before I left school, one of my best friends was called up for military service.

And that day, when I saw him over in Cape Town Station, he said to me, You know, I really want to join the military.

You don't want to fight black people in the townships.

You don't want to fight black people on the borders.

You want to become a medical doctor.

But the government forced him to go for military training.

But so he was sent off six months after his training was sent to the borders, was killed by so-called terrorist.

And that day, when you sit in that church to appreciate what you hero this gentleman was, your country helped to take our country against a black enemy.

I said to myself, my friend was not a hero, that blacks was not my enemy.

I would look for something alternative not to join the military.

So my last year in school, a gentleman visited our school of looking for prison guards.

I was not interested in that till he mentioned exemption from military service.

And that way if I talk with him and say to him, I not really want to become a prison guard, I want to become an electrician.

He said that's the right opportunity to take join the prison service.

After training, you can become an electrician.

He helped prisoners become electricians.

All very good.

And so I look at that as reading your story.

One of the milestone events in your life is that decision and not to go to the Army or to serve as a prison in the prisons is how you met Mandela.

So well, kind of.

Fast forward today.

We were talking in 1978.

You're you go to you meet Mandela.

He's already 60 years old.

He's been in prison for for 14 years at this point.

Can you share a little bit about when you first met Mandela and how that friendship?

You know, the first meeting I have with Mandela is I already worked three months on the island, but then I start working in the center's office.

And that day when we going to see to office, we were counting cards, birthday cards for Mandela, 60th birthday, we count 55,180 odd cards that amazes us.

After we did, we get instructions, we must find out how many cards come from each individual country.

I said he was from South Africa.

Only 12 cards.

That was something very strange for me.

I ask the sargent why 12 from South Africa.

Don't South Africans not know Nelson Mandela?

His answer to me was he said, Brand, if anybody is of Africa dare center card for Nelson Mandela and a police identified that person, that person should have been arrested.

90 days, solitary confinement, electrical shock, maybe tortured, maybe killed.

It was my first time I hear the name Nelson mandela is something each a special person.

Then the second time is when I take him for a visit.

And that day, during the visit, his wife.

has smuggled a baby to the prison And because she was black, she was not allowed to sit inside the boat.

She sat on the top deck outside in a rain in the bed with a drafty condition.

So she always protect against the weather with a blanket and raincoats and things like that.

But when she get off the boat, she put a baby infant with her.

I was supposed to cancel the visit, but I told her she's not allowed to bring the baby in the visiting center.

So she left it in a waiting room.

But after the visit, Winnie Mandela was called back because Mandela, for another request to pass a message to his wife.

That moment, I ask if he can hold the baby because I never held to African child.

She pushed in my arms.

She grabbed and back.

She tried to bribe me of some money.

I said, Mama, I don't want your money.

Oh yes.

Keep the baby for you.

Please go back into visiting room, but still begging me.

But while she's in a visting room, I locked in.

I sneak to the site of Mandela.

After Mandela passes, muted the window closed because it was not contact visits.

Mandela's name in a passage.

And when they walk to me, the tears coming out of his eyes.

When you take the baby out of my arms, you kiss her child twice, you become more emotional.

That same time, Winnie Mandela knocking at door is locked in a quick to take the baby back from outside, apologize and give the baby back.

She goes to begging me to show them, to tell him that secret was between me and Mandela for nearly 20 years.

Yeah, well, often we talk about the the bravery and the courage of of leaders, but it also also the courage of those like yourself around it.

Make these stories possible.

Make their was powerful.

So thank you for having the courage then to do such a thing with Mandela and start the friendship.

So we talk about the friendship.

You know it starts his grand baby.

You talk about some the experiences from the friendship at at at the at the prison of Robben Island prison and just what that environment was.

It let the audience know what the environment was it Robben Island Prison during the time there.

You know, Robben Island was a very hard prison because all prisoners was forced to do hard labor.

And that is where Mandela worked in a limestone quarry.

When I start work, I got him from the top where there breaking the lime rock.

We as guards was not allowed to wear sunglasses, so prisoners was either not allowed to have sunglasses.

And that is where I see all this.

Prisoners was really bad, punished to doing hard labor, loading the lime rock onto the trucks against the wind.

They become pure white of the lime dust.

But where it got him from that lime does reach my eyes and was burning my eyes.

And I said to myself, How can this old people surviving, working in this condition Mandela work 14 years in in the lime slavery.

After that you work on the rocks taking seek help out of the sea.

They actually slip on rocks.

Fractured his ankle, his knee and broken ribs.

You know it was hard labor which was accused on him.

He slept for 14 years on two Mets and three blankets, treated like a dog.

It was a lot of hardship island for them.

Yes, yes, yes.

And then you share with earlier with with all of the hardship, the hard labor that the unjust conditions.

You shared some stories about Mandela's sense of humor.

He despite all of that, he maintained a sense of humor and was able to do that to rise above that.

Can you share a little bit about that?

You know, Mandela was always treated to guards with respect with humanity, and he was always there.

Even the guard is swearing at them of telling bad things.

You are always respectful to the guards.

You know, he tried to change Robben Island also in the mindset of the prisoners as the university.

He always they and they were young prisoners, plenty to escape when a little received to the section of leaders Mandela was in that section.

He wrote a note in said, Comrade, we never escape from this place.

The longer we stay in this place, the more we prepare us for freedom.

Be educate yourselves.

But remember, if you escape in a police arrested, you will be tortured to death.

How can you fight the struggle if your dead?

And through that motivation of education, they motivate.

Also they guards for education.

You go so far smuggled a letter out of priso To my wife.

It was many years later in he told my wife she must put his last efforts to her to motivate me.

Also to educate.

You know, my wife never show me the letter.

She start talking about education.

Then I say to her, You become like one of my prisoners.

I didn't tell, you know, And that later we still have today in Afrikaans.

But thank you for sharing.

So we're talking about Robben out in the time to Robben Island, both yours and Mandela's.

But Mandela in what night in 1982, most Pollsmoor Prison.

How did how did that what initiated that move for Mandela but also for yourself to to the other prison in 1982.

It's like I said, the prisons a letter into prison and with that letter it was found in the prison and when it was founded of 48 of us and the eight of us decided to the minister's office when a minister received that letter of Mandela's motivation and was signed by three of his other comrades with him, they decided to transfer the leadership of Robert and told to break the spirit of the leadership of an island.

And then about six months later, they also transferred Ahmed Kathrada because he was also taking control of the island.

That was the reason for but for me.

Robben Island was a prisoner.

After two years, I was isolated, an island I was supposed to be every fortnight, weekend off.

But because of uprising in South Africa, they put us on standby.

Sometimes I stuck on an island 3 to 4 months.

So I start applying, applying, applying for the transfer.

But after four and a half years I applied.

I went to transfer.

I'm getting married and I want a house.

At that moment I didn't have accommodation.

Then they temporary transfer me to Pollsmoor prison.

But the next morning Mandela was also at Pollsmoor Prison.

I report for duty.

I was then promoted to a sergeant and then the officer said to me, You must remember.

But promotion come responsibilities and your responsibility will be that for terrorist we bring from the island.

So they put me in charge of them.

And you guarded Mandela at Pollsmoor for six years next week.

Okay.

And what the conditions we talked about the conditions that Robin Robben Island at Pollsmoor with a similar conditions there or there was an improvement in Mandela's environment there.

You know, the environment like it was far more improvement.

But Mandela's safety was away from his comrades.

That made him a little bit worse in conditions.

But he was in a big cell with his three comrades, with him.

They've got proper big sheets and everything.

They've got free fresh water in a taps.

Mandela's was struggling for three months of stomach problems with the fresh water.

You must remember in Island there was not much fresh water.

They bring water from the walls for the first time they can wash himself with soap and the shampoo and things like that.

And, you know, brackish water, things changed for the better.

You've got a tennis court there.

There was table tennis, you've got a prison garden Mandela love garden.

And so things got a little bit better.

But only thing was he was kept away from all his commraids on Robben Island.

Yeah and so second prison during Mandela's time in prison, there was a third move to the Victor Vista prison.

And so he moved from Pollsmoor to Victor Verster.

Can you talk a little bit about his time there and what he shared with his time at the Victor Vista?

You know, 1985 when Mandela stopped talking with government, not negotiating because you made it clear that is not negotiations because a prisoner can negotiate.

I've talked with government with that talks in that isolation where he was kept alone.

There was no windows, no fresh air, nothing that is really develop pneumonia very bad in hospital.

The doctor even made a statement that this prison is not going to survive for three days because there was too much fluid on his lungs.

So they put a pipe at the back to drain it.

And with draining after two days you recovered a bit better.

They sent him to the most expensive private mediclinic in Capetown for better to recoverment.

from that.

They said he can't put him back in prison because the minister could not talk with him.

That talk to all of his sickness.

So they put him in a farm prison, which was a luxury house, and that the house Mandela had more facilities, people could have visited, his family could have even overnight with him.

But nobody overnight with him, only his one daughter to stay one night with him Mandela.

So Winnie Mandela, nobody one night with him, they said we are not sleeping in a prison in that prison, Mandela.

Little bit more things, more luxuries.

You could entertain these visitors with a proper lunch and things, but you must pay out of his own pocket.

You cook a private cook, which was full time in the house, who cooked for him So things was better.

I was not full time.

There I was at Victor Foster prison 3 to 4 days a week where I take his comrades on one one basis to visit him.

And sometimes I take a whole group of the list, the ones which were centers with Mandela.

We have some talks and discussions, and that is from that Mandela put more pressure.

The government release all sick prisoners is happened and he start negotiating from that house 1990 every month he walk out of prison as a free man.

Well, which is a day.

Well, remember, but I want to ask you a question.

It was like at this point, you've spent, you know, upwards of eight on how many years with Mandela, your lives are entwined.

You become you would develop the friendship of bond.

Mandela walks out of prison.

You're still a prison guard.

How does that affect and what happens in Christo Brands life at the moment.

Mandela walks out of prison, you know, a day before he was released.

I visit him because he was informed he will be released and I say goodbye to him and good luck.

Enjoy the outside world.

But today, when you walk out, I feel a little bit sad.

I think I lost a friend, which I won't see again, you know, but it was also feel very happy inside myself because I always tell him, Mandela, you moved from Robben Island to Pollsmoor.

That's a way to freedom.

Yes.

You see, I always believe that the world outside the prison bars.

So that day when you woke up, he was very excited for that.

But I never realized he will find me.

Two days later, to thank me for a time.

I got him on Robben Island and we will be in touch.

That's great.

That's a great story.

And then that story gets even better as Mandela goes on to be president.

He calls on you and those kind of talk.

He calls on you for service.

And we can talk a little bit about your your time in serving with Mandela's parliament.

You know, when Mandela become the president, 94 in that year was a lot of uprisings in prison.

Normally when the president retired, a new prison come up, they keep the amnesty for prisoners as part of their sentence of when Mandela came into power, there was no part of sentence of at that state.

And people start writing Burning attack guards in prison Mandela contacted me, was very upset and worried about my life in prison dealing with criminal prisoners.

And he gave me a job of in his office in parliament.

So I start work in his office in parliament.

But after two weeks in Parliament, he invites me one morning for coffee.

Then I complain to my President Mandela.

I feel very privileged to work for you.

But you know, when I walk in parliament in the passages, you can take more than 60% of people I met was a prisoner from Robben Island and it was maybe a family member of one of the prisoners or maybe the lawyers.

They all excited, Happy at work.

Yeah, but I don't have a job.

Don't you have something to keep me busy?

That same day introduced me to a Ramaphosa and they put me in charge of the document center of the Constitution Assembly.

So he worked in a constitution.

Assembly.

Truly an amazing story.

And that friendship goes on behind me, very close with the family.

And even in Mandela's death, joined the family at his funeral.

So very sad about that.

And do you remain close with any of the family members of Mandela now?

And what does that relationship look like?

You know, when Mandela passed, I was invited to the funeral also that day, Zindziswa Mandela, take my hand and said I'm part of the family I must stand with at a small place near the gravesite because other people was blocked out, not allowed to get in.

And then three months after that, my book launch was in the UK Zindziswa Mandela picks up again.

And she said to me, Mr.

Brand, you can't run away from me.

My last promise to my dad was he said, if he can't attend your book launch, I must represent him.

So she was also the we were in touch with him.

Then my agent contact her one day because I must go to Norway.

And they know Norwegians want to know what is my relationship with the Mandela family If I was really prison guard So they contact Zindziswa and Zindziswa Mandela to Mandela, said no, he was not a prison guard of my father.

He was part of the family.

That's great.

So I'm still in touch with some of the family.

Yes.

That's awesome.

It's a great story.

And and I skipped over a piece.

I want to talk about when Mandela's time and part of my as president, they adopted new laws in South Africa.

You return to Robben Island.

Can you talk about your return arriving on that right as as after after parliament adopting the the changes sweeping changes in South Africa.

You return.

Talk to us about that.

What were your reasons for returning to Robben Island?

What what happened?

Mandela gave me a job offer first at the Nelson Mandela Foundation that foundation was in Johannesburg when he offered me the job that day.

I said, President Mandela, I can't move to Johannesburg.

My wife is working in Cape Town.

My kids are in school in Capetow my family and friends in Cape Town.

And I love the mountains.

I love the beaches.

I can't move from Cape Town to Johannesburg.

And he said, Brant you really become like an old tree now you can’t replant an old tree?

I said, President Mandela.

Then I’m an old tree Then he introduced me to the new city will come back to me two weeks later.

Ahmed Kathrada contact me.

Ahmed Kathrada was sentenced with Mandela for life.

He was Mandela's adviser.

Also in parliament.

He contact me and he said, we declared Robben Island as a museum, 1996 November.

We want to bring back ex guards and ex-prisoners to tell their life stories and what happened on this island.

So I start with Robyn and Museum in ticket sales first Then three months later opened curio shops for a museum and open a village shop for the museum.

Island And for people by groceries 15 years later, I opened a coffee cafeteria for the museum.

So work for Robben Island in a retail outlet.

But I was also doing private tours for the museum.

But you know, every time President Mandela, visitor of an island and I'm on duty, you want me to be part of the tour.

And every time he introduced me to these guys, it was Senator Obama, Khadafi, Clinton, Arafat.

And then he put his arm around me and always tell the people how bad I treated him when it was always come of this story.

And then he told you about our friendship?

Yes.

So I worked for over 21 years.

Well, that is truly a powerful, powerful story.

And in the sense of healing, to return to a place that had so much, you know, precedent and terrible history for so many beyond Mandela.

So you go back and you guys embrace and that is really powerful.

So thank you for doing that.

Thank you for sharing it.

So, look, we have a we live in a world of turmoil right now where we could certainly use some of Mandela's philosophy.

and apply what do you think of me?

What would what would Mandela offer to us in such a world right now where it's there's so much turmoil and so much some things that we we would like to think are no longer part of our society, of us still here.

You know, firstly, we need new leaders in the world.

You know, Mandela always said when I visit a school one day, he said, Mr.

Brand, we will walk you out and you see the kids playing the he said, Mr.

Brand, you see that kid, the black and white kid, That's a rainbow nation I want to see developing my country.

Remember, we tried to change Robben Island into our university.

We take over government we never ran a government before Someone in line, My comrade is going to fail.

It was failing big time in South Africa, he said.

We must educate that youth.

There will be a future leaders of your country.

But Mandela was a one who always walked out with a passion of reconciliation.

You know, he would So far we've got a Springbok rugby team in South Africa.

It's people hate you put up the black jersey and show the white people that black people will join them in organizing.

You bring black and white together on that day and all over the world we were problems.

It was time to intervene.

I said, Stop war.

It be first talk and have discussions because you always believe innocent people died and leaders decide, you know, we must try to motivate the leaders and speak to them to sit down, bring calmness, and then, you know, we're supposed to walk out with reconciliation.

If he was alive today, he should have maybe upset what is going on in the world.

We will still try to intervene.

He should have tried to intervene to make settlements in the world.

Well, thank you for continuing to share his message and his philosophy with the rest of the world through your books and your speaking engagements.

I will ask what's next for Christo brand?

You know, Mandela always said when my book was finalized, he said, Mr.

Brand, that is now the time you must travel with your book, The Showcase the world that a black man and a white man can become friends.

And with that, speaking out to people, you bring different cultures, different religions and people together and we can understand each other.

And the more you might friends about around the world, the more there could be peace in the world.

And I always believe that.

And that's why it's great.

Legacy of Nelson Mandela.

People must come together.

We must take end.

Like the sports of Spurs last night.

We must join together and well, it will be free.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, we certainly appreciate you being here in San Antonio.

Continue to share the message, participate in the program with students of service in the long bridge of freedom.

We look forward to hear more from you.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

I hope all of you come and visit one day of Africa, come and visit Robben Island to see the place where he was incarcerated for so many years in our trip and what they're going through.

Thank, thank.